UEFI BIOS issue and booting from clone


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thosj
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I've been using Reflect for years, currently v6 4 licenses. I've cloned many hard drives, for example, going from HDD to SSD, or SSD to larger SSD. It's worked flawlessly every time, BUT, all my cases were with conventional BIOS computers. I simply went into the BIOS and changed the boot device and WAL-LAH, done, worked dozens of times.

But.......now I have a UEFI BIOS Gigabyte GA‑Z77X‑UD3H motherboard and I can't figure out how to boot from the clone. I've cloned the C:\ drive. I shut down and disconnected all but the clone. It won't boot. I go into the BIOS and pick it, or the boot menu and pick it, and it says put in a disk with an operating system and reboot. No matter what I've tried I can't get it to boot from the clone. Hook up the other drives and it boots back to Windows 8.1 fine, actually to the boot menu where I can choose Windows 8.1 or Windows 7. But, alas, no matter what I've tried I can't get the clone to boot.
I have UEFI/Legacy boot set in the BIOS. I tried changing boot priority, nothing. The original Windows boot is a GPT partition, so I imagine the clone is, too.
I've searched the web for UEFI info 'til I'm blue in the face and I can't figure it out.
Any ideas?

Edit:
I MAY be on my way to solving this! I booted from the Reflect restore media and fixed the boot on all the disks it saw. Now when I boot I get the Windows Boot menu and it has 3 choices and not just 2 as before. So now I can boot to the clone from there. I MAY be able to boot from the clone from the UEFI boot menu now, too, time will tell.
My goal here is to test upgrade the clone to Windows 10 and if successful, carry on, if not, back to the original Win 8.1 install, clone again and try again until I'm successful. All this because this is the 5th Win 10 upgrade/install, several have NOT gone well, and this one is my wife's main system so no (and I mean ZERO) room for error!!!
Fingers crossed, but still open to suggestions.

Edited 17 December 2015 12:09 AM by thosj
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Check if your clone uses an MBR system partition. If this is true, you must enable CSM  in your BIOS which allows you to boot from both UEFI and Legacy OPROM devices.



Edited 17 December 2015 8:26 AM by Dreamer2004
thosj
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As best I can tell I have I have the BIOS IS set to boot UEFI and Legacy (there is no CSM choice I can find), but I still can't boot by going into the BIOS and selecting to boot from it nor can I hit F12 on boot and select the clone drive and boot. All drives are GPT so SHOULD boot UEFI, right? What I did  yesterday, booting the Reflect restore media and repairing the boot sectors or whatever it does, now lets me boot from the clone from Windows Boot Menu, which, I think, is still coming from Windows 7 which was the original boot disk. So the story, long and melodramatic, is original boot was Windows 7. I installed Windows 8 on a different HD and Windows then generated the Boot Menu where I had 2 choices. I cloned Windows 8 to a new SSD, so now 3, but couldn't boot from the clone from the BIOS. Did the repair on the boot with the Reflect restore media and now 3 show up in the Windows Boot Menu and I CAN boot from all three from there.

Clearly I do NOT understand this UEFI boot thing. As it stands now, if the original boot drive died, I could NOT boot from the clone by changing the boot drive in the BIOS because I tried that by unplugging the two drives, leaving only the latest clone connected, and TRIED to get it to boot from it and can't figure out how to do it. I'm reluctant to try changing the unintelligible BIOS settings for fear of hosing the ORIGINAL boot sequence!! Like I said, this is my wife's, and the households, MAIN machine and when something "changes" it gets uncomfortable for the IT guy (me), so he tries to make these transitions painless by enduring all the pain himself up front!

My take thus far, UEFI may be far superior to BIOS, but NOT for this, simply going in the BIOS and changing boot order!! I've read and read and read trying to understand it and thus far haven't run on the article that lights the bulb over my head!!!

Again, any suggestions welcome!!

Tom


Edited 17 December 2015 1:37 PM by thosj
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Do you have all the partition on your cloned disk that existed on your original disk?  Reflect should show the same layout.

Have you read/tried the Fixboot option in the rescue media?
Fixboot Article

You could also make an image of your entire disk and restore it rather than the clone function but cloning should work.

thosj
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Yes, all the partitions are the same, looking in Reflect.

I HAVE read the Fixboot article, I think, but I'll read it again. That's what I read and DID, that fixed it so Windows Boot Manager "sees" all three disks, not just two as it did originally, and now boots from the clone from there., really ANY of the three boot fine from Windows Boot Menu.

***Edit.......Just reread and that IS the article I read previously that fixed it so at least Windows Boot Menu can boot from any of the three SSDs.

I'm having trouble trying to boot from anything but the original boot disk from the BIOS or F12 boot menu, it won't do it. Like I mentioned, I've gone so far as to unplug all the drives but the clone and tried to boot and I can't do it!! Said drive IS bootable as I CAN boot from it from Windows Boot Menu.

I guess it's my deep misunderstanding of either UEFI, Windows Boot Menu, or, most likely, BOTH!! This is NOT, I don't think, a problem with Reflect or the cloned drive, it's a problem of operator misunderstanding, plain and simple. From my reading, all these UEFI implementations differ by motherboard manufacturer, so I can't seem to find any concrete information on how it works other than glittering generalities that aren't doing it for ME!!

Edited 17 December 2015 2:58 PM by thosj
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Does it help if you convert (and format?) the target disk to GPT using Diskpart or the Windows Disk Management console before attempting the clone operation?  (Just a thought - I don't have any experience with UEFI and boot GPT disks.)

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Edited 17 December 2015 11:45 PM by Gork
thosj
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The target disk IS GPT. All disks in the system are GPT.

I've successfully upgraded the clone drive to Windows 10 and all is well. I still can't figure out how to boot from anything other than the original Windows 7 disk, the only one in the BIOS that shows as UEFI, which must hold the Windows Boot Menu. So where I am now if the Windows 7 boot disk dies, I'm screwed, seemingly!! I'd REALLY like to be able to set the BIOS to boot from the Windows 10 SDD set to UEFI somehow, but I can't figure out how to do it!!

Still hoping for a clue!!
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If you follow the instructions in the article @Seekforever linked while your Windows 7 volume is disconnected I would think this should make it so you could boot to the Win10 volume directly.  (I've done something similar with MBR volumes when I used to run a dual boot system and it worked that way at least.  I could set the BIOS to boot from the first disk and choose from the boot menu which OS to load or set the BIOS to boot directly from the second disk - Win10 in your case.  I would assume it'd work similarly - but I make sure to have full backups in place any time I mess with stuff like this.)

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Edited 17 December 2015 11:45 PM by Gork
Richard V.
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=thosj  -- But.......now I have a UEFI BIOS Gigabyte GA‑Z77X‑UD3H motherboard and I can't figure out how to boot from the clone. I've cloned the C:\ drive. I shut down and disconnected all but the clone. It won't boot.

Did you clone the entire physical drive (all of its partitions) or only its "C:" partition onto the new drive?  Cloning only the "C:" partition will not produce an independently bootable result on the new drive. UEFI-GPT booting requires an EFI System Partition (ESP) and a Microsoft System Reserved (MSR) partition containing the EFI boot manager and related BCD support, etc., to be present on the physical drive that you want to use for booting the system.

Those required system partitions are likely to have no "drive letter" assigned to them, but they must be there and "active" to make the drive independently bootable using EFI.  Otherwise, your UEFI setup will only be able to boot the operating system on the new drive from another physical drive that does have ESP and MSR partitions and that also has the new OS loader option added to its boot configuration data (BCD) store.

Just a friendly word of caution if the "Fix Boot Problems" attempt has resulted in the latter arrangement.  While it is workable, it can cause some potentially hazardous confusion between two cloned OS partitions each of which assigns itself "drive letter C:" when it is loaded.


Regards, Richard V. ("Arvy")
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Edited 24 December 2015 3:44 AM by Arvy
thosj
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OK, let's see here. The clone was of the entire physical drive. Must be, it boots just fine from Windows Boot Manager and booting either Windows 10, Windows 8.1, or Windows 7 from Windows Boot manager results in a "normal" boot and only one C"\ drive. Like I said, this isn't an issue with Reflect or the clone. All is well with the clones and all current drives in the computer boot just fine...........WITH Windows Boot Manager which must live on the Windows 7 drive.

What I can't do is boot from anything other that the Windows 7 drive thru Windows Boot Manager, I can't select either of the other two drives from the BIOS F12 screen nor from the BIOS Save and Exit tab picking one of the drives other that the Windows 7 drive. The Windows 7 drive is the only drive on the boot selection screens that has UEFI in front of it's name. The other two just say something like P4 Samsung 850 Pro blah, blah, blah. The Windows 7 SSD says something like UEFI Samsung 850 blah, blah, blah.

I'm just guessing here from your post that this somehow relates to this BCD boot configuration data. This must NOT be on the Windows 8.1 drive nor the Windows 10 drive. Is there a way to GET this BCD info ON either of those two drives now, after the fact, without somehow starting over?

I'm seemingly good here as long as the Windows 7 SSD doesn't die on me, at which point I won't be able to boot the damn computer from anything other than a USB stick!! And a UEFI one at that!!

If I set the BIOS to boot Legacy Only, it won't boot from these GPT drives, is that correct?

I'm not here trying to solve any Reflect issue, I'm here because only smart people even KNOW about Reflect, so I thought this would be a good place to search for answers to my ignorance!!

Color me unimpressed with UEFI. Other motherboard manufacturers MIGHT have better implementations, but this Gigabyte UEFI BIOS has me baffled. Windows was smart enough to figure this out and when I upgraded Windows 10 on what was the clone of the Windows 8.1 drive, it fixed it's boot manager to default to the new Windows 10 drive, bumped the other two down the list, and works fine.

Richard V.
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If I understand correctly what you are saying, you seem to be confusing two entirely separate issues -- i.e. (1) whether one or more of the physical drives installed in a UEFI-configured computer include EFI and MSR system partitions that are capable of booting that machine, and (2) the availability of several operating systems that are capable of being loaded from the BCD store's boot menu contained within a system partition on one or more of those physical drives that is/are bootable.

It seems clear enough that you are currently able to load several operating systems by using some BCD store boot menu in a system partition that is available on at least one of your physical drives.  However, that does not necessarily mean that any or all of the other physical drives on which those multiple OSes may be located have also been made independently capable of booting your UEFI-configured machine.  In fact, the results that you have posted here suggest that they have not.  (For one thing, it depends on how each of the Windows OSes was installed in the first place and it sounds as if some may have been installed on MBR-configured drives with a different motherboard which may portend other "non-Macrium" issues as well.)  You can check whether each drive currently includes the required system partitions by examining their layouts either in Windows disk management or in Reflect's user interface. (Look for a relatively small "unlettered" partition formatted as FAT-32.)  If you're not sure, post a screenshot and someone here will try to provide further help if possible.

__
P.S.: Personally, I tend to agree with your observation about the questionable benefits of UEFI-GPT booting, especially since most people (including me) now install the OSes themselves on SSDs very few of which have capacities in excess of 2TB.  The so-called "secure boot" feature is actually more like a Microsoft DRM insertion.

Regards, Richard V. ("Arvy")
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Edited 18 December 2015 10:32 PM by Arvy
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If I understand correctly and you're able to load the OS from the drive in question after booting to a different drive first but can't boot directly from the drive in question please see my previous post...

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thosj
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All the drives are GPT. All the drives were only ever in this PC, on this motherboard, none ever formatted or having Windows installed on a NON UEFI motherboard.

I've attached a screen shot from Reflect, marked up

Here's the brief history:
Originally ONE SSD with Windows 7 installed on UEFI motherboard, GPT partition.

Added second SSD and installed Windows 8 from bootable USB media. My guess here is this install "saw" the Windows 7 install and happily installed Windows 8 on the second SSD and created the Windows Boot Manager stuff on the Windows 7 SSD. Now I had a boot menu with two choices, Windows 8, set as default by the install, and Windows 7. Worked great this way for a year or so.

Added a third SSD, CLONED the Windows 8 drive, no UEFI partition (!) to the new SSD. Couldn't boot from it. Booted the Reflect restore USB and did the Fix Boot whatever. Now when I rebooted I had three boot choices in Windows Boot Manager, Windows 7, Windows 8.1 on volume 9, Windows 8.1 on volume 2.

Booted to Windows 8.1 on volume 9 (the clone) from the Windows Boot Menu, upgraded to Windows 10 from online. Went right thru it no problem. This changed the Windows Boot Menu to show Windows 10, Windows 7, Windows 8.1.

Here's the screenshot:

.http://forum.macrium.com/uploads/images/345f5cd8-a652-4332-9e3a-71ee.jpg
What I would like to end up with is the Windows 10 SSD being the UEFI boot drive. Can I get there from here without a clean install?

I've read around the web about BCD repair but it's a little intimidating!

Is it possible to do this:
Unplug all drives but the Windows 10 SSD. Boot either from the Windows 10 install UEFI USB stick or the Reflect restore media, get to a command prompt, and get this SSD to have the UEFI boot FAT32 partition with this BCD repair routine? Like outlined here:
http://pcsupport.about.com/od/fixtheproblem/ht/rebuild-bcd-store-windows.htm

I notice only the Windows 7 drive has a HIDDEN directory named ESD and I somehow figure this is where the info lives for the boot manager. Is this correct?

I'm good right now, I can boot to the Windows 10 drive from the Windows Boot Menu, but I'd like to get it to boot from the Windows 10 drive.

I suppose I could image the Windows 10 drive and now that this PC has seen Windows 10, install Windows 10 clean onto the current Windows 10 SSD, wiping it and reinstalling, then restore the image. IF I have to resort to that!!!

Thanks for the help here, I appreciate it!


thosj
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Gork - 18 December 2015 10:05 PM
If I understand correctly and you're able to load the OS from the drive in question after booting to a different drive first but can't boot directly from the drive in question please see my previous post...

Gork,
We cross posted here, but if you read my last post, you'll see I CANNOT simply change the boot drive on this UEFI motherboard like we could back in the 'regular' BIOS days with MBR drives!! I wish it were that simple. It has to do with this BCD info and a UEFI partition being on, or in my case, NOT being on, the drives. If it doesn't have this UEFI FAT32 boot partition, apparently you can't boot from it any other way than thru the Windows Boot Menu on whatever drive DOES have this partition.

Gork
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Perhaps in addition to my suggestion you would first need to move (copy) the FAT32 partition over to the Win10 drive in the unformatted partition.  I'm not sure if you'd need to split the unformatted partition into two so one would be the same size as the FAT32 partition and the other could be come the "System Reserved" partition or if you could just image it on over.  Since the Win10 drive doesn't currently contain a boot partition for UEFI I assume the unformatted partition is only there to save the space for doing something like this.  But I have to say UEFI still confuses me a bit because I've only read about it - I haven't actually WORKED with it.  Like you guys have been kind of saying, I think the implementation of UEFI and GPT booting could have been thought out a little better.



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thosj
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So, if I'm starting to (mis)understand this, there are TWO things I need in order to boot from the Windows 10 drive. The UEFI FAT32 partition and the BCD info in Windows, which I THINK might reside in the hidden ESD directory on the drive.

The question is how to get there from here!!

What's IN the UEFI FAT32 partition?
Does the UEFI FAT32 partition need to be in some specific location on the drive?
What's in this BCD info, is it indeed located in this hidden ESD directory on the drive?
Anyone ever hear of, or use, a program called EasyBCD? Will this resolve ALL this? Off to see if I can learn this.

Still pondering!!

Richard V.
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=thosj -- Here's the screenshot

Well that seems to show quite clearly that only one of the physical drives currently includes a FAT-32 formatted system partition as required for UEFI-GPT booting.  And, consistent with the results that you've posted here, it's the same drive on which your Windows 7 OS partition is also located.  So it appears that the required system partition is not present on the new drive along with the cloned OS ("C:") partition and, in the circumstances, it can't be UEFI-GPT booted independently.  For a more detailed explanation, see this Microsoft MSDN article noting in particular the section entitled "Answers about Windows GPT required partitions: EFI System Partition".

It's not altogether impossible to make multiple drives independently bootable (I do), but you may decide that it would require a greater amount of backup-reformat-restore ops than it's probably worth in this situation, especially considering other available recovery options in the event of failure.  You can, of course, set the default OS to whatever you want no matter where the active partition is located with its BCD store boot menu.  Incidentally, according to Gigabyte's GA-Z77X-UD3H Manual, that motherboard does, in fact, have an option ROM setting under its "BIOS Features" for selecting either "EFI Compatible" or "Legacy" as the launch priority.

Regardless of what you decide to do, if anything, just ensure that you have everything (ALL drive partitions) well backed up. An OS partition alone (whether cloned or restored) won't produce a bootable result for most current system configurations. Even if they're MBR setups they're likely to have a separate MSR partition.

Regards, Richard V. ("Arvy")
https://forum.macrium.com/uploads/images/afc5d4fe-5d25-4e25-be94-185e.png

Edited 24 December 2015 3:22 AM by Arvy
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My thought is that if you clone the FAT32 partition maybe it doesn't matter so much what's in it - though a little homework certainly wouldn't hurt.  I THINK I've read that the FAT32 partition has to be the first on the drive.  As for the BCD info I was hoping the "fix boot issues" option in the Reflect media would take care of that.  Heck, I was actually wondering if maybe it would take care of creating the FAT32 partition since it appears you might have space to be able to create it but that's probably a bit far-fetched.  I was looking at EasyBCD earlier as well - I could have looked into it more but it appeared to make (much) easier what can mostly already be done manually.  That's why I stopped reading - I prefer the hard way, at least until I learn and understand the process.



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Richard V.
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EasyBCD is only a visual editor for the boot configuration data and Reflect's "Fix Windows Boot Problems" operation is approximately equivalent to the combination of boot repair (FixBoot, FixMBR, Rebuild BCD, etc.) functions that are found under Windows own recovery (Winre.wim) boot option.  There's really nothing wrong with any of that that needs to be "fixed" as the system is currently configured and neither of those utilities will modify the actual disk partitioning schema.  Some of that can be done within Windows disk management, but other steps (some of which are destructive) require DiskPart.exe operations and selective restoration.  I think I recall Nick saying something about considering automated MBR/GPT conversion for Macrium's future development, but that's certainly not a trivial undertaking.

Anyhow, enough from me on this topic!  I'm going to resume my interrupted my "rest break" now. Tongue

Regards, Richard V. ("Arvy")
https://forum.macrium.com/uploads/images/afc5d4fe-5d25-4e25-be94-185e.png

Edited 19 December 2015 1:16 AM by Arvy
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I think it's important that the new drive contains an EFI boot partition. This is a small partition (normally some 200MB) and is usually the first or second
partition on the drive. You can clone it from the original boot partition, but I don't think this will work. You will have to rebuild it. Did you consider using
a program like Boot-Repair? That program can also install bootmanager Grub, which is very handy if you have more than one operating system.
 
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