Full images created even though Incremental is specified.


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BGregory
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Here's my question:
    I have two SATA removeable drives volume labels Backup_1 and Backup_2 which I swap each night.
    I back up one of my partitions running a full image backup on Sunday, and incrementals Mon-Sat.
    What is happening is I'm getting a Full image created every day because even though I specified
    Incremental for Mon-Sat, the Macrium log shows "Full - Incremental specified but no image set to append to"

    A further example: I start out with Backup_1 and Backup_2 which have no images yet. On Sunday I run a full
    image to Backup_1. On Monday I run an Incremental image to Backup_2 but because there are no images yet
    it creates a Full image which it should. On Tuesday I run an Incremental image to Backup_1 which does have
    a full image but the Macrium log shows "Full - Incremental specified but no image set to append to".

    My retention rules are set to "Apply retention rules to all backup sets in the target folder" I can only
    assume that it might be because the volume labels are different (Backup_1 & Backup_2) because the partition
    I'm backing up is the same.

    Any ideas?

    Bob Gregory
    
jphughan
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As a test, can you run a Full backup to either one of your backup destinations and then immediately thereafter try running an Incremental?  Do you get an Incremental appended to that most recent Full in that case?  If so, I'd be curious what happens at the next scheduled Incremental that goes to that same destination.

The only cases I know of where a Full gets created when an Incremental is specified for an image backup is when the source data selection has changed, i.e. you've added or removed a partition from the backup, made a change to the disk (converting from MBR to GPT), or resized any of the partitions included in the backup.  That last outcome can occur as part of upgrades to new releases of Windows 10.

If things still don't end up working properly even after that test I described above, just for clarity can you post a list of the last handful of backup jobs indicating what day of the week the job ran, which of your two destination disks was connected that day, and what type of backup occurred?

Edited 19 June 2019 1:22 PM by jphughan
BGregory
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jphughan - 19 June 2019 1:20 PM
As a test, can you run a Full backup to either one of your backup destinations and then immediately thereafter try running an Incremental?  Do you get an Incremental appended to that most recent Full in that case?  If so, I'd be curious what happens at the next scheduled Incremental that goes to that same destination.

The only cases I know of where a Full gets created when an Incremental is specified for an image backup is when the source data selection has changed, i.e. you've added or removed a partition from the backup, made a change to the disk (converting from MBR to GPT), or resized any of the partitions included in the backup.  That last outcome can occur as part of upgrades to new releases of Windows 10.

If things still don't end up working properly even after that test I described above, just for clarity can you post a list of the last handful of backup jobs indicating what day of the week the job ran, which of your two destination disks was connected that day, and what type of backup occurred?

JP,
I actually did as you suggested and ran an incremental right after the Full on Backup_1 and it DID do an incremental.  Backup_1 and Backup_2 are the
same manufacturer and same size.  The partition size/type I'm backing up did not change whatsoever, in fact even the files don't change very often.
Again it may have something to do with the volume label and/or Microsoft's assign serial number (or the actual physical serial number) that is triggering
Macrium to think the output disk has changed.  Hope Macrium chimes in here.

Bob Gregory

jphughan
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Ok, in that case I'm curious what happens at your next scheduled Incremental that's going to the same disk you used for the test.  And to be clear, the decision to create a Full even when an Incremental is specified has nothing to do with the properties of the output/destination disk.  Reflect doesn't even maintain a "memory" of other destination disks you might be using with the same job.  It works with the destination that's available at any given time, without maintaining any sort of link between different destinations.  If Reflect creates a Full when you ask for an Incremental, it's based purely on comparing the contents of existing backup files on the disk to the source data being backed up in the currently running job.  A volume label change wouldn't cause new backups to no longer match existing backups, because I've changed volume labels on source partitions without that forcing me to create a new Full.

If you want to try to get to the bottom of this, post two different screenshots:

#1. The Restore tab in Reflect after selecting the last Incremental that was created before Reflect created an unexpected Full.
#2: The Restore tab in Reflect after selecting the Full that was created when you were expecting an Incremental.

When each of those backups is selected under the Restore tab, the partition layout of the disk(s) captured in that backup are shown above the list of available backups.  I suspect that if you compare those, you will find some sort of difference in the source, either in partition(s) selected or their sizes.

Edited 19 June 2019 7:36 PM by jphughan
Nick
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BGregory - 19 June 2019 7:22 PM
jphughan - 19 June 2019 1:20 PM
As a test, can you run a Full backup to either one of your backup destinations and then immediately thereafter try running an Incremental?  Do you get an Incremental appended to that most recent Full in that case?  If so, I'd be curious what happens at the next scheduled Incremental that goes to that same destination.

The only cases I know of where a Full gets created when an Incremental is specified for an image backup is when the source data selection has changed, i.e. you've added or removed a partition from the backup, made a change to the disk (converting from MBR to GPT), or resized any of the partitions included in the backup.  That last outcome can occur as part of upgrades to new releases of Windows 10.

If things still don't end up working properly even after that test I described above, just for clarity can you post a list of the last handful of backup jobs indicating what day of the week the job ran, which of your two destination disks was connected that day, and what type of backup occurred?

JP,
I actually did as you suggested and ran an incremental right after the Full on Backup_1 and it DID do an incremental.  Backup_1 and Backup_2 are the
same manufacturer and same size.  The partition size/type I'm backing up did not change whatsoever, in fact even the files don't change very often.
Again it may have something to do with the volume label and/or Microsoft's assign serial number (or the actual physical serial number) that is triggering
Macrium to think the output disk has changed.  Hope Macrium chimes in here.

Bob Gregory

Hi Bob, as @jphughan has mentioned a Full is triggered over an Incremental if the disk ID (disk GUID for GPT)  or partition layout (starting offset and length) isn't found in any backup set in the backup target folder. 

Check the disk layouts as described and also to avoid the possibility that the set(s) in the target folder can't be read could you verify the last image in each set?

If you're unable to find the cause then please open a ticket so we can dig deeper 

https://www.macrium.com/support

Kind Regards

Nick - Macrium Support

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Edited 19 June 2019 9:08 PM by Nick
BGregory
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Nick - 19 June 2019 9:05 PM
BGregory - 19 June 2019 7:22 PM
jphughan - 19 June 2019 1:20 PM
As a test, can you run a Full backup to either one of your backup destinations and then immediately thereafter try running an Incremental?  Do you get an Incremental appended to that most recent Full in that case?  If so, I'd be curious what happens at the next scheduled Incremental that goes to that same destination.

The only cases I know of where a Full gets created when an Incremental is specified for an image backup is when the source data selection has changed, i.e. you've added or removed a partition from the backup, made a change to the disk (converting from MBR to GPT), or resized any of the partitions included in the backup.  That last outcome can occur as part of upgrades to new releases of Windows 10.

If things still don't end up working properly even after that test I described above, just for clarity can you post a list of the last handful of backup jobs indicating what day of the week the job ran, which of your two destination disks was connected that day, and what type of backup occurred?

JP,
I actually did as you suggested and ran an incremental right after the Full on Backup_1 and it DID do an incremental.  Backup_1 and Backup_2 are the
same manufacturer and same size.  The partition size/type I'm backing up did not change whatsoever, in fact even the files don't change very often.
Again it may have something to do with the volume label and/or Microsoft's assign serial number (or the actual physical serial number) that is triggering
Macrium to think the output disk has changed.  Hope Macrium chimes in here.

Bob Gregory

Hi Bob, as @jphughan has mentioned a Full is triggered over an Incremental if the disk ID (disk GUID for GPT)  or partition layout (starting offset and length) isn't found in any backup set in the backup target folder. 

Check the disk layouts as described and also to avoid the possibility that the set(s) in the target folder can't be read could you verify the last image in each set?

If you're unable to find the cause then please open a ticket so we can dig deeper 

https://www.macrium.com/support

Thanks Nick & JP.  Before I perform your suggestions, I am going to delete all the subject backups on both Backup_1 and Backup_2 and start over clean.
Tonight I am going to use Backup_1 which will be a full, tomorrow morning I am going to use Backup_2 which will also be a full.  Then also tomorrow I will
attempt an incremental to Backup_1  and Backup_2 which now both have fulls.  They both SHOULD be an incremental.  The input partition I am backing up will not change.

I'll let you know tomorrow.

BGregory
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BGregory - 19 June 2019 11:20 PM
Nick - 19 June 2019 9:05 PM
BGregory - 19 June 2019 7:22 PM
jphughan - 19 June 2019 1:20 PM
As a test, can you run a Full backup to either one of your backup destinations and then immediately thereafter try running an Incremental?  Do you get an Incremental appended to that most recent Full in that case?  If so, I'd be curious what happens at the next scheduled Incremental that goes to that same destination.

The only cases I know of where a Full gets created when an Incremental is specified for an image backup is when the source data selection has changed, i.e. you've added or removed a partition from the backup, made a change to the disk (converting from MBR to GPT), or resized any of the partitions included in the backup.  That last outcome can occur as part of upgrades to new releases of Windows 10.

If things still don't end up working properly even after that test I described above, just for clarity can you post a list of the last handful of backup jobs indicating what day of the week the job ran, which of your two destination disks was connected that day, and what type of backup occurred?

JP,
I actually did as you suggested and ran an incremental right after the Full on Backup_1 and it DID do an incremental.  Backup_1 and Backup_2 are the
same manufacturer and same size.  The partition size/type I'm backing up did not change whatsoever, in fact even the files don't change very often.
Again it may have something to do with the volume label and/or Microsoft's assign serial number (or the actual physical serial number) that is triggering
Macrium to think the output disk has changed.  Hope Macrium chimes in here.

Bob Gregory

Hi Bob, as @jphughan has mentioned a Full is triggered over an Incremental if the disk ID (disk GUID for GPT)  or partition layout (starting offset and length) isn't found in any backup set in the backup target folder. 

Check the disk layouts as described and also to avoid the possibility that the set(s) in the target folder can't be read could you verify the last image in each set?

If you're unable to find the cause then please open a ticket so we can dig deeper 

https://www.macrium.com/support

Thanks Nick & JP.  Before I perform your suggestions, I am going to delete all the subject backups on both Backup_1 and Backup_2 and start over clean.
Tonight I am going to use Backup_1 which will be a full, tomorrow morning I am going to use Backup_2 which will also be a full.  Then also tomorrow I will
attempt an incremental to Backup_1  and Backup_2 which now both have fulls.  They both SHOULD be an incremental.  The input partition I am backing up will not change.

I'll let you know tomorrow.

Well I started out with a fresh test and the backups ran as designed.  Fulls were done on Backup_1 and Backup_2 and then I ran incrementals on both
disks and they ran as expected.  I can't explain my original observations since I'm pretty careful with my backups but obviously I missed something and I apologize to all involved for taking up your time.  Many thanks though for you help and some insight on how fulls/incrementals are determined.

Bob Gregory
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