SSD Trim rapid delta and intelligent copy


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Mintmag
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Hi there I've been using Macrium for a few years and it's never let me down. Some of the features do confuse me though. I've read through the forms and even the help files and I still struggle some of these setting and what they do exactly.

I'll number my questions for ease.

1. What does ssd trim do and how does it differ from, rapid delta and intelligent copy.
2. is ssd trim worth using on a platter hard drive
3. After reading some of the descriptions of how all these work I still don't quite understand, would it be okay if there was a simple graphic or image showing going on; on the inside of the hard drives.

4. if trim is universally good why do we have the option to turn it off.


Edited 30 December 2017 1:28 PM by Mintmag
Froggie
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1. SSD TRIMming has nothing to do with "intelligent copy" and is only useful during restorations of a SSD (Solid State Disk).
2. Nope.  If issued (meaning the option is turned on), nothing happens at all in relation to HDDs (hard drives).
3. The TRIM function is unique to the use of SSDs only.  It is the only means available to let an SSD know that an internal storage block is no longer necessary.  If it is not issued to an SSD when Windows decides a storage block is no longer needed (ie, DELETED), the SSD will continue to carry that blocks DATA around almost ad infinitum until told to do otherwise, even if Windows no longer needs it.  Eventually it will need to free those blocks up as it slowly runs out of storage.  This is very different than HDDs which don't care about the status of those storage blocks... they can just be overwritten when Windows decides to use them once again.  This is not true of SSDs..

The sectors covered by the partition(s) to be restored are trimmed using the relevant ATA command before the restore process starts.  In normal usage, it is the filesystem driver (Windows 7 and beyond) that manages release of unused SSD blocks via TRIM. However, it cannot trim sectors that were in use by the previous, now overwritten, filesystem. Without the pre-restore trim, these sectors would erroneously remain allocated within the SSD (not within Windows).

4. It's not necessarily universally GOOD, it's only good for SSDs.  If used with HDDs, it just generates some useless overhead (up to 10+ seconds most of the time) during a restoration..

Edited 30 December 2017 2:05 PM by Froggie
Mintmag
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Froggie - 30 December 2017 2:04 PM
1. SSD TRIMming has nothing to do with "intelligent copy" and is only useful during restorations of a SSD (Solid State Disk).
2. Nope.  If issued (meaning the option is turned on), nothing happens at all in relation to HDDs (hard drives).
3. The TRIM function is unique to the use of SSDs only.  It is the only means available to let an SSD know that an internal storage block is no longer necessary.  If it is not issued to an SSD when Windows decides a storage block is no longer needed (ie, DELETED), the SSD will continue to carry that blocks DATA around almost ad infinitum until told to do otherwise, even if Windows no longer needs it.  Eventually it will need to free those blocks up as it slowly runs out of storage.  This is very different than HDDs which don't care about the status of those storage blocks... they can just be overwritten when Windows decides to use them once again.  This is not true of SSDs..

The sectors covered by the partition(s) to be restored are trimmed using the relevant ATA command before the restore process starts.  In normal usage, it is the filesystem driver (Windows 7 and beyond) that manages release of unused SSD blocks via TRIM. However, it cannot trim sectors that were in use by the previous, now overwritten, filesystem. Without the pre-restore trim, these sectors would erroneously remain allocated within the SSD (not within Windows).

4. It's not necessarily universally GOOD, it's only good for SSDs.  If used with HDDs, it just generates some useless overhead (up to 10+ seconds most of the time) during a restoration..

Oh okay I'm kind of following you. I read up on Windows built in trim system. If you don't use SSD trim when restoring will the Windows system still trim the drive?
Froggie
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Windows 7 will only TRIM storage it knows about, basically files it deletes.

Windows 8/10, in the disk mgmt area contain the ability to OPTIMIZE SSDs.  This feature when engaged will TRIM the entire disk, incl old DATA being carried around by the SSD.

The OPTIMIZEfeature can be done under Windows 7 but requires a separate application to perform the operation... the most common one used is the SSDtool..

Mintmag
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Froggie - 30 December 2017 10:52 PM
Windows 7 will only TRIM storage it knows about, basically files it deletes.

Windows 8/10, in the disk mgmt area contain the ability to OPTIMIZE SSDs.  This feature when engaged will TRIM the entire disk, incl old DATA being carried around by the SSD.

The OPTIMIZEfeature can be done under Windows 7 but requires a separate application to perform the operation... the most common one used is the SSDtool..

So when restoring to an SSD it's really not advisable to not use the trim feature?
Froggie
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The Windows "automatic" TRIM feature only TRIMs when Windows is deleting things.  During a restoration you aren't TRIMming anything, you'r only writing DATA, not deleting it.  That's why Reflect offers you the ability to TRIM the spaces it will be restoring... Windows cannot do this (LIVE WIndows or WinPE).  If that option is set, Reflect, itself, issues the same ATA commands required for the SSD to manage its internal storage correctly.  It only issues those commands for the space it will be writing to during the restore operation... either the FULL used storage compliment in the case of a Full restore, or the DELTA DATA restored during a RDR operation (much smaller).

BUT, as mentioned above, this type of SSD cleanup is available for all Windows Systems 7-10 inclusive following the System restoration and BOOTing to the LIVE System.

It should be used with any SSD restore operation.
Edited 30 December 2017 11:53 PM by Froggie
Mintmag
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Froggie - 30 December 2017 11:50 PM
The Windows "automatic" TRIM feature only TRIMs when Windows is deleting things.  During a restoration you aren't TRIMming anything, you'r only writing DATA, not deleting it.  That's why Reflect offers you the ability to TRIM the spaces it will be restoring... Windows cannot do this (LIVE WIndows or WinPE).  If that option is set, Reflect, itself, issues the same ATA commands required for the SSD to manage its internal storage correctly.  It only issues those commands for the space it will be writing to during the restore operation.

BUT, as mentioned above, this type of SSD cleanup is available for all Windows Systems 7-10 inclusive following the System restoration and BOOTing to the LIVE System.

Right okay but what happens to the SSD if you decline to use the Reflect trim feature?
Froggie
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As I mentioned above, all the old DATA on the disk at the time of the restore will remain on that disk until it has been cleaned by Windows optimization... it gets carried around ad infinitum until the optimization has been performed.  If REFLECT TRIMs the device before the restoration, this is not a problem.
Froggie
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HDDs can easily write on top of the old DATA so a TRIM  operation is never necessary... SSDs cannot do this easily due to their internal design.  You might consider finding a good discussion on the difference between SSDs and HDDs... that may help you understand what WIndows has to deal with as far as SSDs are concerned.
Froggie
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My belief is that the TRIM feature should not be something left up to the user to decide.  It's easy enough for Reflect to query the device its restoring in order to find out if TRIM is supported on that device.  If it isn't, don't TRIM it, if it is, TRIM it.  It really isn't something the user should have to worry about.

The TRIM operation only adds about 15-20 seconds to a restoration (Full, not RDR) on a device that supports TRIM (SSDs).  In the case of HDDs, the ATA TRIM command will most likely fail but I don't know what Reflect does with that information.  Following either of those scenarios, the restoration should occur successfully.
Edited 31 December 2017 12:09 AM by Froggie
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