Macrium Support Forum

UEFI BIOS issue and booting from clone

https://forum.macrium.com/Topic5266.aspx

By thosj - 16 December 2015 11:21 PM

I've been using Reflect for years, currently v6 4 licenses. I've cloned many hard drives, for example, going from HDD to SSD, or SSD to larger SSD. It's worked flawlessly every time, BUT, all my cases were with conventional BIOS computers. I simply went into the BIOS and changed the boot device and WAL-LAH, done, worked dozens of times.

But.......now I have a UEFI BIOS Gigabyte GA‑Z77X‑UD3H motherboard and I can't figure out how to boot from the clone. I've cloned the C:\ drive. I shut down and disconnected all but the clone. It won't boot. I go into the BIOS and pick it, or the boot menu and pick it, and it says put in a disk with an operating system and reboot. No matter what I've tried I can't get it to boot from the clone. Hook up the other drives and it boots back to Windows 8.1 fine, actually to the boot menu where I can choose Windows 8.1 or Windows 7. But, alas, no matter what I've tried I can't get the clone to boot.
I have UEFI/Legacy boot set in the BIOS. I tried changing boot priority, nothing. The original Windows boot is a GPT partition, so I imagine the clone is, too.
I've searched the web for UEFI info 'til I'm blue in the face and I can't figure it out.
Any ideas?

Edit:
I MAY be on my way to solving this! I booted from the Reflect restore media and fixed the boot on all the disks it saw. Now when I boot I get the Windows Boot menu and it has 3 choices and not just 2 as before. So now I can boot to the clone from there. I MAY be able to boot from the clone from the UEFI boot menu now, too, time will tell.
My goal here is to test upgrade the clone to Windows 10 and if successful, carry on, if not, back to the original Win 8.1 install, clone again and try again until I'm successful. All this because this is the 5th Win 10 upgrade/install, several have NOT gone well, and this one is my wife's main system so no (and I mean ZERO) room for error!!!
Fingers crossed, but still open to suggestions.
By Dreamer2004 - 17 December 2015 8:20 AM

Check if your clone uses an MBR system partition. If this is true, you must enable CSM  in your BIOS which allows you to boot from both UEFI and Legacy OPROM devices.


By thosj - 17 December 2015 1:29 PM

As best I can tell I have I have the BIOS IS set to boot UEFI and Legacy (there is no CSM choice I can find), but I still can't boot by going into the BIOS and selecting to boot from it nor can I hit F12 on boot and select the clone drive and boot. All drives are GPT so SHOULD boot UEFI, right? What I did  yesterday, booting the Reflect restore media and repairing the boot sectors or whatever it does, now lets me boot from the clone from Windows Boot Menu, which, I think, is still coming from Windows 7 which was the original boot disk. So the story, long and melodramatic, is original boot was Windows 7. I installed Windows 8 on a different HD and Windows then generated the Boot Menu where I had 2 choices. I cloned Windows 8 to a new SSD, so now 3, but couldn't boot from the clone from the BIOS. Did the repair on the boot with the Reflect restore media and now 3 show up in the Windows Boot Menu and I CAN boot from all three from there.

Clearly I do NOT understand this UEFI boot thing. As it stands now, if the original boot drive died, I could NOT boot from the clone by changing the boot drive in the BIOS because I tried that by unplugging the two drives, leaving only the latest clone connected, and TRIED to get it to boot from it and can't figure out how to do it. I'm reluctant to try changing the unintelligible BIOS settings for fear of hosing the ORIGINAL boot sequence!! Like I said, this is my wife's, and the households, MAIN machine and when something "changes" it gets uncomfortable for the IT guy (me), so he tries to make these transitions painless by enduring all the pain himself up front!

My take thus far, UEFI may be far superior to BIOS, but NOT for this, simply going in the BIOS and changing boot order!! I've read and read and read trying to understand it and thus far haven't run on the article that lights the bulb over my head!!!

Again, any suggestions welcome!!

Tom

By Seekforever - 17 December 2015 2:29 PM

Do you have all the partition on your cloned disk that existed on your original disk?  Reflect should show the same layout.

Have you read/tried the Fixboot option in the rescue media?
Fixboot Article

You could also make an image of your entire disk and restore it rather than the clone function but cloning should work.
By thosj - 17 December 2015 2:53 PM

Yes, all the partitions are the same, looking in Reflect.

I HAVE read the Fixboot article, I think, but I'll read it again. That's what I read and DID, that fixed it so Windows Boot Manager "sees" all three disks, not just two as it did originally, and now boots from the clone from there., really ANY of the three boot fine from Windows Boot Menu.

***Edit.......Just reread and that IS the article I read previously that fixed it so at least Windows Boot Menu can boot from any of the three SSDs.

I'm having trouble trying to boot from anything but the original boot disk from the BIOS or F12 boot menu, it won't do it. Like I mentioned, I've gone so far as to unplug all the drives but the clone and tried to boot and I can't do it!! Said drive IS bootable as I CAN boot from it from Windows Boot Menu.

I guess it's my deep misunderstanding of either UEFI, Windows Boot Menu, or, most likely, BOTH!! This is NOT, I don't think, a problem with Reflect or the cloned drive, it's a problem of operator misunderstanding, plain and simple. From my reading, all these UEFI implementations differ by motherboard manufacturer, so I can't seem to find any concrete information on how it works other than glittering generalities that aren't doing it for ME!!
By Gork - 17 December 2015 11:25 PM

Does it help if you convert (and format?) the target disk to GPT using Diskpart or the Windows Disk Management console before attempting the clone operation?  (Just a thought - I don't have any experience with UEFI and boot GPT disks.)
By thosj - 17 December 2015 11:34 PM

The target disk IS GPT. All disks in the system are GPT.

I've successfully upgraded the clone drive to Windows 10 and all is well. I still can't figure out how to boot from anything other than the original Windows 7 disk, the only one in the BIOS that shows as UEFI, which must hold the Windows Boot Menu. So where I am now if the Windows 7 boot disk dies, I'm screwed, seemingly!! I'd REALLY like to be able to set the BIOS to boot from the Windows 10 SDD set to UEFI somehow, but I can't figure out how to do it!!

Still hoping for a clue!!
By Gork - 17 December 2015 11:41 PM

If you follow the instructions in the article @Seekforever linked while your Windows 7 volume is disconnected I would think this should make it so you could boot to the Win10 volume directly.  (I've done something similar with MBR volumes when I used to run a dual boot system and it worked that way at least.  I could set the BIOS to boot from the first disk and choose from the boot menu which OS to load or set the BIOS to boot directly from the second disk - Win10 in your case.  I would assume it'd work similarly - but I make sure to have full backups in place any time I mess with stuff like this.)
By Arvy - 18 December 2015 2:13 AM

=thosj  -- But.......now I have a UEFI BIOS Gigabyte GA‑Z77X‑UD3H motherboard and I can't figure out how to boot from the clone. I've cloned the C:\ drive. I shut down and disconnected all but the clone. It won't boot.

Did you clone the entire physical drive (all of its partitions) or only its "C:" partition onto the new drive?  Cloning only the "C:" partition will not produce an independently bootable result on the new drive. UEFI-GPT booting requires an EFI System Partition (ESP) and a Microsoft System Reserved (MSR) partition containing the EFI boot manager and related BCD support, etc., to be present on the physical drive that you want to use for booting the system.

Those required system partitions are likely to have no "drive letter" assigned to them, but they must be there and "active" to make the drive independently bootable using EFI.  Otherwise, your UEFI setup will only be able to boot the operating system on the new drive from another physical drive that does have ESP and MSR partitions and that also has the new OS loader option added to its boot configuration data (BCD) store.

Just a friendly word of caution if the "Fix Boot Problems" attempt has resulted in the latter arrangement.  While it is workable, it can cause some potentially hazardous confusion between two cloned OS partitions each of which assigns itself "drive letter C:" when it is loaded.
By thosj - 18 December 2015 2:35 PM

OK, let's see here. The clone was of the entire physical drive. Must be, it boots just fine from Windows Boot Manager and booting either Windows 10, Windows 8.1, or Windows 7 from Windows Boot manager results in a "normal" boot and only one C"\ drive. Like I said, this isn't an issue with Reflect or the clone. All is well with the clones and all current drives in the computer boot just fine...........WITH Windows Boot Manager which must live on the Windows 7 drive.

What I can't do is boot from anything other that the Windows 7 drive thru Windows Boot Manager, I can't select either of the other two drives from the BIOS F12 screen nor from the BIOS Save and Exit tab picking one of the drives other that the Windows 7 drive. The Windows 7 drive is the only drive on the boot selection screens that has UEFI in front of it's name. The other two just say something like P4 Samsung 850 Pro blah, blah, blah. The Windows 7 SSD says something like UEFI Samsung 850 blah, blah, blah.

I'm just guessing here from your post that this somehow relates to this BCD boot configuration data. This must NOT be on the Windows 8.1 drive nor the Windows 10 drive. Is there a way to GET this BCD info ON either of those two drives now, after the fact, without somehow starting over?

I'm seemingly good here as long as the Windows 7 SSD doesn't die on me, at which point I won't be able to boot the damn computer from anything other than a USB stick!! And a UEFI one at that!!

If I set the BIOS to boot Legacy Only, it won't boot from these GPT drives, is that correct?

I'm not here trying to solve any Reflect issue, I'm here because only smart people even KNOW about Reflect, so I thought this would be a good place to search for answers to my ignorance!!

Color me unimpressed with UEFI. Other motherboard manufacturers MIGHT have better implementations, but this Gigabyte UEFI BIOS has me baffled. Windows was smart enough to figure this out and when I upgraded Windows 10 on what was the clone of the Windows 8.1 drive, it fixed it's boot manager to default to the new Windows 10 drive, bumped the other two down the list, and works fine.
By Arvy - 18 December 2015 3:49 PM

If I understand correctly what you are saying, you seem to be confusing two entirely separate issues -- i.e. (1) whether one or more of the physical drives installed in a UEFI-configured computer include EFI and MSR system partitions that are capable of booting that machine, and (2) the availability of several operating systems that are capable of being loaded from the BCD store's boot menu contained within a system partition on one or more of those physical drives that is/are bootable.

It seems clear enough that you are currently able to load several operating systems by using some BCD store boot menu in a system partition that is available on at least one of your physical drives.  However, that does not necessarily mean that any or all of the other physical drives on which those multiple OSes may be located have also been made independently capable of booting your UEFI-configured machine.  In fact, the results that you have posted here suggest that they have not.  (For one thing, it depends on how each of the Windows OSes was installed in the first place and it sounds as if some may have been installed on MBR-configured drives with a different motherboard which may portend other "non-Macrium" issues as well.)  You can check whether each drive currently includes the required system partitions by examining their layouts either in Windows disk management or in Reflect's user interface. (Look for a relatively small "unlettered" partition formatted as FAT-32.)  If you're not sure, post a screenshot and someone here will try to provide further help if possible.

__
P.S.: Personally, I tend to agree with your observation about the questionable benefits of UEFI-GPT booting, especially since most people (including me) now install the OSes themselves on SSDs very few of which have capacities in excess of 2TB.  The so-called "secure boot" feature is actually more like a Microsoft DRM insertion.
By Gork - 18 December 2015 10:05 PM

If I understand correctly and you're able to load the OS from the drive in question after booting to a different drive first but can't boot directly from the drive in question please see my previous post...
By thosj - 18 December 2015 10:09 PM

All the drives are GPT. All the drives were only ever in this PC, on this motherboard, none ever formatted or having Windows installed on a NON UEFI motherboard.

I've attached a screen shot from Reflect, marked up

Here's the brief history:
Originally ONE SSD with Windows 7 installed on UEFI motherboard, GPT partition.

Added second SSD and installed Windows 8 from bootable USB media. My guess here is this install "saw" the Windows 7 install and happily installed Windows 8 on the second SSD and created the Windows Boot Manager stuff on the Windows 7 SSD. Now I had a boot menu with two choices, Windows 8, set as default by the install, and Windows 7. Worked great this way for a year or so.

Added a third SSD, CLONED the Windows 8 drive, no UEFI partition (!) to the new SSD. Couldn't boot from it. Booted the Reflect restore USB and did the Fix Boot whatever. Now when I rebooted I had three boot choices in Windows Boot Manager, Windows 7, Windows 8.1 on volume 9, Windows 8.1 on volume 2.

Booted to Windows 8.1 on volume 9 (the clone) from the Windows Boot Menu, upgraded to Windows 10 from online. Went right thru it no problem. This changed the Windows Boot Menu to show Windows 10, Windows 7, Windows 8.1.

Here's the screenshot:

.http://forum.macrium.com/uploads/images/345f5cd8-a652-4332-9e3a-71ee.jpg
What I would like to end up with is the Windows 10 SSD being the UEFI boot drive. Can I get there from here without a clean install?

I've read around the web about BCD repair but it's a little intimidating!

Is it possible to do this:
Unplug all drives but the Windows 10 SSD. Boot either from the Windows 10 install UEFI USB stick or the Reflect restore media, get to a command prompt, and get this SSD to have the UEFI boot FAT32 partition with this BCD repair routine? Like outlined here:
http://pcsupport.about.com/od/fixtheproblem/ht/rebuild-bcd-store-windows.htm

I notice only the Windows 7 drive has a HIDDEN directory named ESD and I somehow figure this is where the info lives for the boot manager. Is this correct?

I'm good right now, I can boot to the Windows 10 drive from the Windows Boot Menu, but I'd like to get it to boot from the Windows 10 drive.

I suppose I could image the Windows 10 drive and now that this PC has seen Windows 10, install Windows 10 clean onto the current Windows 10 SSD, wiping it and reinstalling, then restore the image. IF I have to resort to that!!!

Thanks for the help here, I appreciate it!

By thosj - 18 December 2015 10:17 PM

Gork - 18 December 2015 10:05 PM
If I understand correctly and you're able to load the OS from the drive in question after booting to a different drive first but can't boot directly from the drive in question please see my previous post...

Gork,
We cross posted here, but if you read my last post, you'll see I CANNOT simply change the boot drive on this UEFI motherboard like we could back in the 'regular' BIOS days with MBR drives!! I wish it were that simple. It has to do with this BCD info and a UEFI partition being on, or in my case, NOT being on, the drives. If it doesn't have this UEFI FAT32 boot partition, apparently you can't boot from it any other way than thru the Windows Boot Menu on whatever drive DOES have this partition.
By Gork - 18 December 2015 10:25 PM

Perhaps in addition to my suggestion you would first need to move (copy) the FAT32 partition over to the Win10 drive in the unformatted partition.  I'm not sure if you'd need to split the unformatted partition into two so one would be the same size as the FAT32 partition and the other could be come the "System Reserved" partition or if you could just image it on over.  Since the Win10 drive doesn't currently contain a boot partition for UEFI I assume the unformatted partition is only there to save the space for doing something like this.  But I have to say UEFI still confuses me a bit because I've only read about it - I haven't actually WORKED with it.  Like you guys have been kind of saying, I think the implementation of UEFI and GPT booting could have been thought out a little better.

By thosj - 18 December 2015 10:47 PM

So, if I'm starting to (mis)understand this, there are TWO things I need in order to boot from the Windows 10 drive. The UEFI FAT32 partition and the BCD info in Windows, which I THINK might reside in the hidden ESD directory on the drive.

The question is how to get there from here!!

What's IN the UEFI FAT32 partition?
Does the UEFI FAT32 partition need to be in some specific location on the drive?
What's in this BCD info, is it indeed located in this hidden ESD directory on the drive?
Anyone ever hear of, or use, a program called EasyBCD? Will this resolve ALL this? Off to see if I can learn this.

Still pondering!!
By Arvy - 18 December 2015 10:59 PM

=thosj -- Here's the screenshot

Well that seems to show quite clearly that only one of the physical drives currently includes a FAT-32 formatted system partition as required for UEFI-GPT booting.  And, consistent with the results that you've posted here, it's the same drive on which your Windows 7 OS partition is also located.  So it appears that the required system partition is not present on the new drive along with the cloned OS ("C:") partition and, in the circumstances, it can't be UEFI-GPT booted independently.  For a more detailed explanation, see this Microsoft MSDN article noting in particular the section entitled "Answers about Windows GPT required partitions: EFI System Partition".

It's not altogether impossible to make multiple drives independently bootable (I do), but you may decide that it would require a greater amount of backup-reformat-restore ops than it's probably worth in this situation, especially considering other available recovery options in the event of failure.  You can, of course, set the default OS to whatever you want no matter where the active partition is located with its BCD store boot menu.  Incidentally, according to Gigabyte's GA-Z77X-UD3H Manual, that motherboard does, in fact, have an option ROM setting under its "BIOS Features" for selecting either "EFI Compatible" or "Legacy" as the launch priority.

Regardless of what you decide to do, if anything, just ensure that you have everything (ALL drive partitions) well backed up. An OS partition alone (whether cloned or restored) won't produce a bootable result for most current system configurations. Even if they're MBR setups they're likely to have a separate MSR partition.
By Gork - 19 December 2015 12:15 AM

My thought is that if you clone the FAT32 partition maybe it doesn't matter so much what's in it - though a little homework certainly wouldn't hurt.  I THINK I've read that the FAT32 partition has to be the first on the drive.  As for the BCD info I was hoping the "fix boot issues" option in the Reflect media would take care of that.  Heck, I was actually wondering if maybe it would take care of creating the FAT32 partition since it appears you might have space to be able to create it but that's probably a bit far-fetched.  I was looking at EasyBCD earlier as well - I could have looked into it more but it appeared to make (much) easier what can mostly already be done manually.  That's why I stopped reading - I prefer the hard way, at least until I learn and understand the process.

By Arvy - 19 December 2015 12:41 AM

EasyBCD is only a visual editor for the boot configuration data and Reflect's "Fix Windows Boot Problems" operation is approximately equivalent to the combination of boot repair (FixBoot, FixMBR, Rebuild BCD, etc.) functions that are found under Windows own recovery (Winre.wim) boot option.  There's really nothing wrong with any of that that needs to be "fixed" as the system is currently configured and neither of those utilities will modify the actual disk partitioning schema.  Some of that can be done within Windows disk management, but other steps (some of which are destructive) require DiskPart.exe operations and selective restoration.  I think I recall Nick saying something about considering automated MBR/GPT conversion for Macrium's future development, but that's certainly not a trivial undertaking.

Anyhow, enough from me on this topic!  I'm going to resume my interrupted my "rest break" now. Tongue
By Hendrick99 - 19 December 2015 5:53 PM

I think it's important that the new drive contains an EFI boot partition. This is a small partition (normally some 200MB) and is usually the first or second
partition on the drive. You can clone it from the original boot partition, but I don't think this will work. You will have to rebuild it. Did you consider using
a program like Boot-Repair? That program can also install bootmanager Grub, which is very handy if you have more than one operating system.
 
Hendrick
By Arvy - 20 December 2015 7:55 AM

=Hendrick99 -- I think it's important that the new drive contains an EFI boot partition.

An EFI System Partition (ESP) is not merely "important", but absolutely essential for the machine itself to be able to boot any installed HD or SSD at all in UEFI-GPT mode, just as a Master Boot Record is essential for BIOS-MBR booting.  Multiple ESPs, on the other hand, are generally redundant (not necessarily a bad thing, but not actually needed) just for supporting a multi-boot configuration.  In any case, the machine uses only one of them during the part of its start-up process that precedes the loading of any operating system.  A single ESP/MSR set of partitions on just one physical drive (as in this case) is quite capable of loading multiple OSes located in multiple partitions on multiple physical drives installed in the machine. (Externals and LAN boots are another matter beyond the scope of this discussion.)  OS selection is what the menu and other optional entries in the boot configuration data (BCD) store are all about and OS (or PE, or RE) loading only occurs thereafter.  I'm not sure why you would suggest that Grub might be needed or helpful in these circumstances.  I hope nothing that I said led you to that conclusion.

__
P.S.:  Anyone wishing to understand UEFI and how it actually works in greater depth couldn't do much better than by reading this article by Adam Williamson.  It's lengthy and it's written from a Linux perspective, but that doesn't matter and, as the author says, it's "aimed at regular everyday folks".  An even more in-depth explanation of the EFI System Partition and its role in the UEFI-GPT boot process is provided in this follow-up article by Peter Jones.  Relevant to this case in particular, note the sentence that begins: "At this point, the firmware will start initializing all peripherals it can find, in whatever order it happens to choose ..."  Whether that is considered as a "benefit" of UEFI-GPT booting can only be a matter of opinion.  Personally, I'm not a big fan.
By Hendrick99 - 21 December 2015 10:24 AM

Hi Arvy,
 
Thanks for all the hints and tips.
Here's one that's perhaps suitable for your situation.
 
Greetings from Amsterdam,
 
Hendrick
By Arvy - 21 December 2015 12:20 PM

Greetings to you from Canada, and thank you very much for your most gracious, kind and generous "hint".  I suppose I must have been misled in thinking that everyone posting under this topic came here in the same open-minded quest for precise technical knowledge and help as the OP who said:
=thosj -- I'm not here trying to solve any Reflect issue, I'm here because only smart people even KNOW about Reflect, so I thought this would be a good place to search for answers to my ignorance!!

I can see now that I was wrong in attributing that same motivation to everyone else here and I apologise if my misguided attempt to respond as fully and precisely as possible to your comment was unwanted and unappreciated in your case. I'll try much harder to restrain myself from posting such "nerdy" technical answers in the future.  Finding lots of wonderful "non-nerdy" examples to follow shouldn't be too difficult.  Perhaps I might even be able to discover a few really ignorant ones if I try hard enough.  On the other hand, why bother.  Obviously, this place can deteriorate fast enough without my contribution.
By thosj - 21 December 2015 1:13 PM

Didn't I read WAY back in the BBS/Compuserve days that ALL forum threads eventually deteriorate to talk of Nazi's. Is that where this is going!!!??

I, the humble OP, actually appreciated the "nerdy" posts. Why I came here. I'd a gone to the Twitter if I'd a wanted short, non-nerdy, answers. Ida had to create an account first, LOL.

In the vain of trying to drag this back, what I'd like to do now is clean install Windows 10 on a new, never seen buy the UEFI BIOS, drive, and then get my stuff back. I tried RESTORING, but of course, the CURRENT Windows 10 partition, even though GPT, is not UEFI BOOTABLE. How can I go about this? I've installed Windows 10 3 times so far, all that goes well, go into the BIOS, set the boot drive order to this new one and it boots up UEFI no problem, Windows 10 activated because it's seen this hardware previously. But now, how do I get the "stuff" from the old boot drive, remember, non-UEFI, on this new one? I tried restoring just the C:\ partition from the old drive but it won't boot. File by file restore some way??

This may actually be a Reflect thing, dragging this thread back to TOTAL relevance!!!

"Arvy" I'm off the read the nerdy post at the link you so graciously provided. Thanks.
By Arvy - 21 December 2015 2:00 PM

Is that where this is going!!!??

Not if I can help it.  For your sake, I'll continue being "nerdy" just a little while longer in this thread.

... but of course, the CURRENT Windows 10 partition, even though GPT, is not UEFI BOOTABLE. How can I go about this?

Just a small but possibly important clarification.  In fact, it appears that every one of your OSes has been installed on a drive that was formatted with a GUID Partition Table (GPT) layout, but only one of them currently includes the system partitions that are required to make it independently bootable by your machine in UEFI-GPT mode.  In other words, the issue isn't so much one of drive formatting, but more the fact that the single GPT drive that has the set of ESP/MSR partitions required for UEFI-GPT booting is not the one that you want it to be.  For whatever reason, you want your Windows 10 OS to be located on that independently bootable drive.

So, basically, if I've understood that correctly, it looks to me if you have two choices.  Either you can either swap OS partitions between the two drives, or you can set about making the drive on which Win10 is currently located bootable with the required system partitions.  Reflect will allow the first option if the used space in either partition can fit in the space available in the other, but you'd need to correct the BCD menu entries thereafter.  In the latter case, you'd end up with two UEFI-GPT bootable drives and whether your machine as currently configured would then actually use the one you want it to use is another question.  From a purely practical standpoint, it really doesn't matter much so long as it's able to boot any of your OS choices from the BCD menu in the system partition that does get used.

Frankly, I'm a little bit puzzled by the strength of your concern about which OS is on which physical drive, especially since you have other data drive partitions, but I'm sure you have your own very good reasons. Smile
By thosj - 21 December 2015 2:45 PM

My goal, however misguided Smile, is to end up with Windows 10 bootable directly, then I'd remove the other two OS drives, Win 7 and Win 8, completely. As it currently stands, the drive containing Windows 7 is the UEFI bootable drive. That's also the "oldest" SSD in the system. If I continue as I'm currently set up, I CAN boot into Windows 10 and life goes on. But, IF the Windows 7 SSD dies, I'm screwed because I cannot boot to the Windows 10 disk any way I currently know of. I believe this to be true because I've physically disconnected all drives but the Windows 10 drive and cannot boot!!

All that said, your two choices would work IF I knew how to do either!!

Choice one, swap OS partitions between the two drives. How do I go about that?

Choice two, set about making the drive on which Win10 is currently located bootable, seems to the me like the best solution, but I don't know how to do that either! Can it be "easily" explained?

I seem to think there is option 3 also, disconnect ALL the current drives, hook up a new drive, install Windows 10. Then set about getting the partition containing Windows 10 to contain the old Windows 10 stuff so I'm back where I was (am?) but with one drive, Win 10 like it is currently, bootable. I've done all this, unhook all drives, hook up new drive, install Win 10, enter BIOS and set it to the boot drive, done, I have a clean, activated, Win10 install that boots. But my "stuff" isn't there. I can't seem to figure out how to copy the files from the original Win10 drive to the new Win10 drive. I tried restoring, but an image restore apparently wipes the drive and "restores" and the drive is unbootable like the original! I've thought about simply backing up the Win 10 original drive to a NAS or server folder, or even to one of the other HD's in the system, and copying them back once the newly bootable Win 10 drive is up and going. 

Keep in mind, much of this is a learning process and "because I can". I have many other computers in the house to "use", I have many SSD's and spinning HD's to draw into the fray. I'm used to the old BIOS method, I'd clone a drive to another one, go into the BIOS,  set it to bootable, upgrade it to the next iteration of Windows, and go. Always had the fallback position of going back to the old OS by simply going into the BIOS and resetting the bootable drive. When I was comfortable with the new OS and that everything was cool, I'd pull the older OS drive out and repurpose. I got off on the wrong foot with UEFI because I installed the new OS on a new drive and Windows/UEFI took over and left the original as the ONLY BOOTABLE drive in the system. I'm trying to learn how to handle what I used to do with UEFI, I guess.

Whew, out of breath............

Thanks again, or in advance, or whatever.


By Arvy - 21 December 2015 3:46 PM

Okay, I think I got it.  It is certainly true that, in the event of total failure of the drive on which the ESP/MSR boot system is located, you'd be unable to load your Win10 OS ... or any other OS, for that matter.  That will remain true, however, regardless of where any of the OS partitions are located, whether on the same drive as those system partitions or any other.  In any case, I'm not here to question whatever you think is best.

Cloning or restoring a partition anywhere space is available on any drive is a fairly straightforward procedure that you've already done at least once.  Swapping two partitions is essentially a matter of backing up both of them and restoring them to each other's locations with whatever size adjustments may be necessary within the limits imposed by used and available space.  See these KB articles for details if needed.  Alternatively if you prefer a "fresh start" on the drive where Win10 is currently located, the diskpart.exe steps that are involved in cleaning a GPT disk and making it bootable are covered in this KB article under the heading "Restoring an MBR System image to UEFI/GPT".  Don't let the title throw you.  You just want to follow the diskpart.exe steps for making the drive UEFI-GPT bootable and restore your Windows 10 partition which will have been destroyed by the diskpart cleaning process.*  Note the cautionary statement in that KB article: "DO NOT restore the MSR partition from the image file ...".  Just create the MSR partition as per step 10 and then use Reflect's WinPE "Fix Windows Boot Problems" for the necessary MSR and BCD boot menu adjustments.

As I said earlier, please ensure that you have everything well backed up and verified first, just in case.  Good luck.

__
* Either that, or you can do a completely fresh Win10 install if you want to, provided that Microsoft's validation servers have awarded the required "digital entitlement" to your previous upgrade.   If you go that route, save yourself time by getting and using the so-called "November Update" version (Win10-1511) for the installation.
By thosj - 22 December 2015 12:07 AM

Got it! It was so easy I can't believe I fretted over this for a week. But, everything is intuitive when you know how to do it!!

Seeing as I put the new-to-this-computer SSD in and installed Windows 10 clean and it was activated, all I had to do was boot the Macrium Restore media and copy the C:\ partition from the image of the OTHER Windows 10 drive to this new one, boot, done. Because Windows install media was booted UEFI, it set the unseen SSD up UEFI and the correct partitions were created.


So.........I learned a lot about UEFI and how to handle this in the future so I can continue to do my old tricks upgrading to new Windows versions with a fall back position to boot the old drive. Just don't install Windows clean on a new hard drive where there's an existing UEFI bootable drive connected because then it'll create a boot menu and one will only be able to boot from the one drive multi-boot style. That's OK if that's what you want, but that's not what I wanted!!

I believe I could now clone the Windows 10 drive to a new drive, or an old drive with all the old partitions removed beforehand, and go into the BIOS and change the boot drive and be good. I'll try that soon.

Thanks to all who helped out here, nerd or otherwise!!


By Arvy - 22 December 2015 12:14 AM

Laugh  Great!  Well done!  Sometimes these things appear to be more complex than they really are ... even for us nerds.  Tongue
By Dreamer2004 - 2 January 2016 8:14 PM

[quote]
thosj - 22 December 2015 12:07 AM
Just don't install Windows clean on a new hard drive where there's an existing UEFI bootable drive connected because then it'll create a boot menu and one will only be able to boot from the one drive multi-boot style.

That's why I bought a power switch to avoid things going wrong:
http://www.amazon.com/Lian-Li-Power-Controller-Model/dp/B004TMDVU6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451765533&sr=8-1&keywords=BZ-H06B+SATA+Power+Switch
By JohnnyNeutron - 29 January 2018 4:57 AM

thosj - 16 December 2015 11:21 PM
I've been using Reflect for years, currently v6 4 licenses. I've cloned many hard drives, for example, going from HDD to SSD, or SSD to larger SSD. It's worked flawlessly every time, BUT, all my cases were with conventional BIOS computers. I simply went into the BIOS and changed the boot device and WAL-LAH, done, worked dozens of times.

But.......now I have a UEFI BIOS Gigabyte GA‑Z77X‑UD3H motherboard and I can't figure out how to boot from the clone. I've cloned the C:\ drive. I shut down and disconnected all but the clone. It won't boot. I go into the BIOS and pick it, or the boot menu and pick it, and it says put in a disk with an operating system and reboot. No matter what I've tried I can't get it to boot from the clone. Hook up the other drives and it boots back to Windows 8.1 fine, actually to the boot menu where I can choose Windows 8.1 or Windows 7. But, alas, no matter what I've tried I can't get the clone to boot.
I have UEFI/Legacy boot set in the BIOS. I tried changing boot priority, nothing. The original Windows boot is a GPT partition, so I imagine the clone is, too.
I've searched the web for UEFI info 'til I'm blue in the face and I can't figure it out.
Any ideas?

Edit:
I MAY be on my way to solving this! I booted from the Reflect restore media and fixed the boot on all the disks it saw. Now when I boot I get the Windows Boot menu and it has 3 choices and not just 2 as before. So now I can boot to the clone from there. I MAY be able to boot from the clone from the UEFI boot menu now, too, time will tell.
My goal here is to test upgrade the clone to Windows 10 and if successful, carry on, if not, back to the original Win 8.1 install, clone again and try again until I'm successful. All this because this is the 5th Win 10 upgrade/install, several have NOT gone well, and this one is my wife's main system so no (and I mean ZERO) room for error!!!
Fingers crossed, but still open to suggestions.

I know it's a 2015 post, But I too have Imaged a ton of drives in the Old BIOS systems. This UEFI stuff, while not new, is new to me. I have an ASUS P8B75-m LX board, Bios date of 2013 or so. It's on a Win_7 Hme Prem x86 box for a security camera system. The System is not connected to the Web. I'm thinking it doesn't need UEFI anyway. But ASUS says they have it on by default in the Motherboard.
The HDD S.M.A.R.T. info shows Power on Hours = 35120. That is 4 years with 12 power cycles! Now that I've inherited this Monstrosity, I'd like some backups! My clones and image restores to new HDD's wont come up. Check out this info.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/manufacture/desktop/disabling-secure-boot
https://www.asus.com/us/support/FAQ/1016356
The screenshots for the ASUS BIOS are helpful to me So i'll be going in to the BIOS looking for ...Advanced/Boot/Secure Boot/Other OS. This looks to be the fix I have not tried yet. I'm betting this is the roadblock I'm hitting. hope this is helpful to somebody...Smile
By jphughan - 29 January 2018 2:49 PM

Secure Boot support didn't arrive until Windows 8, so yes that would definitely have to be off to run Windows 7.  And since Windows 7 32-bit doesn't support UEFI either (in fact even the 64-bit version doesn't properly support UEFI even when it's set up on a GPT disk), you'll also need to find the option to enable BIOS boot mode rather than only allowing UEFI.  That option goes by different names, but look for something like "Legacy boot", "BIOS mode", "UEFI CSM", "Compatibility Support Module" or "Legacy Option ROMs".  Additionally, someone else here was just trying to migrate their Win7 32-bit system to new hardware and found that their motherboard would not support Windows 7 32-bit at all, regardless of configuration, even though it would support 64-bit, so you could have that problem too.  Here's that thread: https://forum.macrium.com/Topic21155.aspx
By JohnnyNeutron - 29 January 2018 11:56 PM

jphughan - 29 January 2018 2:49 PM
Secure Boot support didn't arrive until Windows 8, so yes that would definitely have to be off to run Windows 7.  And since Windows 7 32-bit doesn't support UEFI either (in fact even the 64-bit version doesn't properly support UEFI even when it's set up on a GPT disk), you'll also need to find the option to enable BIOS boot mode rather than only allowing UEFI.  That option goes by different names, but look for something like "Legacy boot", "BIOS mode", "UEFI CSM", "Compatibility Support Module" or "Legacy Option ROMs".  Additionally, someone else here was just trying to migrate their Win7 32-bit system to new hardware and found that their motherboard would not support Windows 7 32-bit at all, regardless of configuration, even though it would support 64-bit, so you could have that problem too.  Here's that thread: https://forum.macrium.com/Topic21155.aspx

Thanks. The System is running, but 4 years of continuous operation on a Western Digital AV 500GB with no back up is disconcerting. The Images I created appear valid. The ASUS Bios freaks out anytime the Western Digital AV 500GB is not present. It goes straight to a "Operating System Missing, Insert Boot Device or Press F1 to retry."
At some point it may just make more sense to have the Condo Association buy a more modern CCTV computer with documentation and available drivers for supported/modern CCTV cards. I
 think I've dickered with every legacy/Compatibility/Bios mode setting they have. Maybe not the right combination. The only thing I haven't done is say yes to deleting the (PK) Product Key in the Uefi bios secure boot section. I ran Belarc Advisor and copied the Product key to a .txt file in case I get that deep. The legacy Conexant BT878 PCI capture card is 32 bit OS only. ( XP/Vista) it no longer has driver support. I think Eyemax DVR must have a proprietary 32 bit driver running. It's a real Sh*tshow. I dislike inheriting junk. Could there be some other Firmware holding Hardware ID's as a secure system boot deal?
By jphughan - 30 January 2018 12:12 AM

JohnnyNeutron - 29 January 2018 11:56 PM
Thanks. The System is running, but 4 years of continuous operation on a Western Digital AV 500GB with no back up is disconcerting. The Images I created appear valid. The ASUS Bios freaks out anytime the Western Digital AV 500GB is not present. It goes straight to a "Operating System Missing, Insert Boot Device or Press F1 to retry."
At some point it may just make more sense to have the Condo Association buy a more modern CCTV computer with documentation and available drivers for supported/modern CCTV cards. I
 think I've dickered with every legacy/Compatibility/Bios mode setting they have. Maybe not the right combination. The only thing I haven't done is say yes to deleting the (PK) Product Key in the Uefi bios secure boot section. I ran Belarc Advisor and copied the Product key to a .txt file in case I get that deep. The legacy Conexant BT878 PCI capture card is 32 bit OS only. ( XP/Vista) it no longer has driver support. I think Eyemax DVR must have a proprietary 32 bit driver running. It's a real Sh*tshow. I dislike inheriting junk. Could there be some other Firmware holding Hardware ID's as a secure system boot deal?

You don't need and definitely don't want to delete keys in the Secure Boot area.  Those keys aren't Windows product keys, but rather cryptographic keys that allow the system to determine whether a particular bootloader is trusted.  If you wipe those out, then you won't be able to use Secure Boot even with OSes that do support it.  All you need to do is disable Secure Boot, not destroy it.

But if I'm understanding correctly, you're saying the ASUS motherboard does boot from the Western Digital drive but will NOT boot from any other drive that was cloned from that working Western Digital drive?  In that case, motherboard configuration definitely isn't your culprit since it would be trying to load the same OS in either case.  You could first try running the "Fix Boot Problems" utility that's built into the Reflect Rescue environment.  If that doesn't work, can you confirm that these clone drives you're trying to boot from are attached internally rather than via USB?  Windows doesn't support booting from USB drives, and some Reflect users have been unaware of that in the past and have wondered why they can clone to a USB-attached drive just fine but can't boot from it.
By JohnnyNeutron - 30 January 2018 12:22 AM

jphughan - 30 January 2018 12:12 AM
JohnnyNeutron - 29 January 2018 11:56 PM
Thanks. The System is running, but 4 years of continuous operation on a Western Digital AV 500GB with no back up is disconcerting. The Images I created appear valid. The ASUS Bios freaks out anytime the Western Digital AV 500GB is not present. It goes straight to a "Operating System Missing, Insert Boot Device or Press F1 to retry."
At some point it may just make more sense to have the Condo Association buy a more modern CCTV computer with documentation and available drivers for supported/modern CCTV cards. I
 think I've dickered with every legacy/Compatibility/Bios mode setting they have. Maybe not the right combination. The only thing I haven't done is say yes to deleting the (PK) Product Key in the Uefi bios secure boot section. I ran Belarc Advisor and copied the Product key to a .txt file in case I get that deep. The legacy Conexant BT878 PCI capture card is 32 bit OS only. ( XP/Vista) it no longer has driver support. I think Eyemax DVR must have a proprietary 32 bit driver running. It's a real Sh*tshow. I dislike inheriting junk. Could there be some other Firmware holding Hardware ID's as a secure system boot deal?

You don't need and definitely don't want to delete keys in the Secure Boot area.  Those keys aren't Windows product keys, but rather cryptographic keys that allow the system to determine whether a particular bootloader is trusted.  If you wipe those out, then you won't be able to use Secure Boot even with OSes that do support it.  All you need to do is disable Secure Boot, not destroy it.

But if I'm understanding correctly, you're saying the ASUS motherboard does boot from the Western Digital drive but will NOT boot from any other drive that was cloned from that working Western Digital drive?  In that case, motherboard configuration definitely isn't your culprit since it would be trying to load the same OS in either case.  You could first try running the "Fix Boot Problems" utility that's built into the Reflect Rescue environment.  If that doesn't work, can you confirm that these clone drives you're trying to boot from are attached internally rather than via USB?  Windows doesn't support booting from USB drives, and some Reflect users have been unaware of that in the past and have wondered why they can clone to a USB-attached drive just fine but can't boot from it.

Right. Yeah Thanks, I've tried it( WD10EZEX 1TB ) internally in place of the Western Digital AV 500GB at SATA-0 and SATA-1 etc. 
By jphughan - 30 January 2018 12:24 AM

Ok, and you're cloning the entire source disk to the destination, not just the C partition?  If so and the clone drive still isn't booting even on the same PC that works fine with the source, I'd start with the Fix Boot Problems option.
By JohnnyNeutron - 30 January 2018 12:31 AM

jphughan - 30 January 2018 12:24 AM
Ok, and you're cloning the entire source disk to the destination, not just the C partition?  If so and the clone drive still isn't booting even on the same PC that works fine with the source, I'd start with the Fix Boot Problems option.

Ok. Tomorrow. Thanks for your help.