missing nvme


Author
Message
Daniel
Daniel
New Member
New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 31, Visits: 3.9K
I think it's been a while since I last booted macrium off my usb stick (started using the boot loader version)... so far back I'm pretty sure I originally needed to install the AMD sata-raid drivers for my sata raid drives (where I store my backups) and nvme drive(s) to see each other.

In preparation for upgrading my motherboard/CPU, I thought I'd make sure everything was top notch with my rescue media (HD and USB) so I would be ready to use redploy to reset the drivers... and that's when things got interesting.

I think the confusing part for me was that AMD now has merged their raid drivers, so it's all lumped into one package now (SATA and NVME RAID)... my Macrium driver folders were updated with the latest driver package contents, rebuilt my HD/USB recovery media, and scratched my head on why one of my NVME's was missing.  What made this really weird is that the missing nvme drive is the same drive that the "boot loader"/HD version of macrium is deployed and booted from without issues.  So why can't macrium see that drive under backup/restore? (even when I boot from USB)

Macrium shows my Samsung 950 NVME, shows my AMD Raid (mirror) using a couple WD sata HD's, and shows my Samsung 840 sata SSD drive.

What's missing is my WD 750 Black nvme (my boot drive)... which I'm pretty sure in windows just uses the MS driver, so I don't think I'm missing a driver in my recovery media... but I am obviously missing something.

Is it possible that somewhere between the updated macrium versions and the new AMD drivers that I am limited to just seeing one nvme at a time?

I think I bypassed this issue before because I pulled the Samsung drive out (after I backed up it's image) when I restored its image to the WD that replaced it (500GB to 1TB upgrade)... and then a few months later decided to add the Samsung drive back in to hold some of my steam library.  I'm not certain now if I ever had a moment where I saw both nvme drives inside Macrium recovery.  Hopefully it's possible though.

EDIT: In case it's helpful... The only way I could convince windows to show me any difference with how the WD NVME drive is handled was to put Device Manager in "View => Devices by connection" mode.; see screenshot.  The WD appears under the "PCI Bus" node (AMD driver), whereas every other drive in the system falls under "PCI Express Root Complex" (MS Driver).

Edited 26 January 2021 12:58 AM by Daniel
Daniel
Daniel
New Member
New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 31, Visits: 3.9K
okay, I think I've solved being able to boot int Macrium Rescue and see all my drives... 2 NVME, one Sata HD Raid array, and one Sata SSD

The education started with deciding to refresh my USB recovery disk (winRE, just like the boot menu "copy").  In the past I had used Rufus to build the USB stick from a Macrium ISO so I could have all the sticks space as one drive letter... so I decided to eliminate that thought process, just let macrium build the partition the way it wanted, and built a second partition/volume so I could utilize all of my stick.

I rebooted off this fresh stick and low and behold all drives were present.  But what caught my eye this boot (must have been really focused) was that the loading screen still said it was loading "WinPE"... and maybe that is correct, that even an WinRE stick/boot loads WinPE, but I decided to play some more because I had also tried adding some drivers in my troubleshooting, and I decided to try roll all those back out of Macrium.

Needless to say, here is what I tried:
  1. Fresh WinPE (Win10 1709)
    • On boot disk (nvme) - no nvme drives visible once Macrium finished loading... not even after a refresh
    • On USB Stick - no drives at all until I hit refresh, then all drives (including both NVME) were visible!
  2. Fresh WinRE (Win10 1903)
    • On boot disk (nvme) - as reported before, all drives were visible except my boot drive (nvme)
    • On USB Stick - all drives (including both NVME) were visible; refresh not required
Here is what this adventure taught me:
  1. I think Macrium could be protecting the boot disk that it loaded from (or it just picks on NVME disks that it boots from) and removed it as a source/destination drive... It's possible the new AMD Driver unification (Sata/Raid blended) is also at play, so it may be a combination of the two.
  2. Other than the latest AMD NVME SATA/Raid unified drivers... no other special drivers were required (not pci.sys, amdkmpfd.sys, etc...)
  3. USB stick booted Rescue environments have no issues (refresh in WinPE aside) accessing all drives... so I'm sticking with USB media from now on
  4. WinRE gave me the most joy, so I'm sticking with it over WinPE
  5. The Windows Boot Menu option has been removed as it just doesn't seem to work with my current configuration; removing my most critical drive that would always be my restore destination

Edited 27 January 2021 10:07 PM by Daniel
jphughan
jphughan
Macrium Evangelist
Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 9.1K, Visits: 61K
The recovery boot menu option does not automatically "hide" the disk from which it booted.  As you say, that would severely limit the utility of that option if that were the case.  When you boot into WinPE/RE, regardless of whether from a flash drive, optical disc, or hard drive, the boot.wim file is extracted into a RAM-hosted virtual disk that is assigned drive letter X.  From that point on, WinPE/RE (your Rescue Media environment in this particular use case) is running purely from RAM, which means it no longer has any dependency on the disk from which the WIM file was loaded -- which is why it is possible to restore onto the disk from which you originally booted if needed.  I've done this several times myself.  (Of course if the restore fails, thereby wiping out the Rescue Media file set on that disk, you won't be able to use that boot menu option AGAIN to get into Rescue, but that's another matter.  And it's also exactly why it's a good idea to have "external" Rescue Media at all times rather than relying solely on the boot menu option.)

What's curious to me about your findings is that when you use the boot menu, you are booting literally from the cached Rescue Media file set.  When you build Rescue Media, the only thing that happens is that those cached files get copied to the specified destination.  Therefore, regardless of whether you boot from the boot menu option or a flash drive, you're booting the exact same copy of boot.wim -- assuming of course your "external" Rescue Media isn't outdated compared to the build Reflect has cached.  Notably, you can only have one recovery boot menu option active at a time, and you have to choose which version of WinPE/RE it uses.  That's possible because you can have multiple cached builds, and changing the WinPE/RE selection for the boot menu just changes which cached boot.wim file the boot entry points to.  But if you built the recovery boot menu option using both WinPE and WinRE and then immediately built WinPE/RE Rescue Media to your flash drive, thereby ensuring that the boot menu and flash drive were using the same copy of boot.wim generated as part of the same Rescue Media build process, then I can't account for your results.  I do however know that the strange design of AMD's NVMe and RAID drivers have posed challenges for others here.  I know that at least with RAID (not sure about NVMe), there are 3 drivers that have to be loaded, AND they have to be loaded in a specific order, which I've seen has become a stumbling block.  I have not followed those threads here closely, however, so I don't know if there's a reliable fix.

Edited 26 January 2021 2:47 AM by jphughan
Daniel
Daniel
New Member
New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 31, Visits: 3.9K
I swear at one point I had the "wow" moment of having macrium restore my boot drive after having loaded if from the windows boot menu. unfortunately my troubleshooting now is after a few upgrades and a few macrium version updates... so its hard to really nail down a root cause.

I'm still not ruling out the WD nvme either... perhaps it's the drive not responding while/after Macrium is loading off it (I'm still curious about it being under amdkmpfd.sys in device manager and whether that's a clue to something happening in the boot/load sequence)... or maybe there is an oddity with the AMD unified drivers added to the mix... or maybe I need to look at BIOS updates for my motherboard.  Hopefully macrium will see this post and look further. the inconsistent behaviour is what baffles me, especially if the information you shared about loading itself into RAM is bang on.

i don't think i'll know any more until further down the road when my upgrade happens.  part of it will be installing a Sumsung 980 nvme... so I'll try re-enabling windows boot mode with/without the WD after making the 980 my boot drive.

samsung has the benefit of making it's own driver (not reliant on AMD's or generic drivers)... so it'll be interesting to see what my upgrade testing reveals.  not sure if ill be able to say for sure if it's the WD drive or the AMD driver if the WD nvme drive disappears again and both Samsung nvme drives (950 & 980) remain accessible. although I suspect  that outcome may sway me towards sticking with Samsung nvme's in the future.
Edited 26 January 2021 4:44 AM by Daniel
jphughan
jphughan
Macrium Evangelist
Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)Macrium Evangelist (13K reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 9.1K, Visits: 61K
The information about the boot.wim file being extracted into and then running from RAM is definitely accurate.  That's how Windows PE/RE work even outside of Rescue Media scenarios.  If you want to verify, open Command Prompt in Rescue Media.  You'll find that you have an X drive that has an entire file system, including folders for Program Files, Windows, etc.  You won't find that anywhere on your local storage devices, because it came out of the boot.wim file and it only exists in RAM.  You can even add/modify/delete files within the X drive, and you will find that none of those changes have survived after you restart and boot into Rescue again.

I have a Samsung 970 Evo Plus and I've avoided using Samsung's NVMe drivers, because they can introduce problems of their own.  I remember a while ago there was a bug whereby simply creating a VHDX file on a Samsung NVMe device where that driver was used would cause the system to throw a blue screen.  I don't know about you, but I would have wasted many hours and removed many segments of hair before it occurred to me that the storage driver I was using might be responsible for that behavior when simply creating a particular type of file on a drive -- ESPECIALLY if I didn't encounter this behavior until a while after I installed the driver.  And I remember a thread here where somebody had an image of a system that was running on one model of Samsung NVMe SSD where they were using Samsung's driver, and they were trying to restore it to another model of Samsung NVMe SSD.  The restored installation wouldn't boot, and it turned out to be because there are different variants of the Samsung NVMe driver for each model.  That person ended up booting their system from their original NVMe SSD just to uninstall that driver -- thereby returning to the Microsoft native driver -- in order to capture an image that would still be usable when restored onto the other NVMe SSD.  Luckily they still had the original SSD to even do that.  And if this occurred even while sticking to Samsung's products, imagine if they'd wanted to move to a completely different vendor's SSD.

These days I increasingly find myself asking whether the added performance or functionality of some component is really worth the additional complexity and potential for strange problems that it brings with it.  And in my own use case, I decided that Samsung's NVMe driver didn't make a strong enough case for itself in that regard.

Daniel
Daniel
New Member
New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 31, Visits: 3.9K
oh my... the plot thickens... It seems there are many examples about nvme's (or their drivers) and/or system drivers doing unexpected and wonky things

Thank you for the reminder that the samsung nvme drivers are optional; good info to keep at hand.
Daniel
Daniel
New Member
New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 31, Visits: 3.9K
I thought I would offer a post-upgrade update... moving from an AMD x399 build to an x570. leaving the samsung nvme out, migrating the WD SN750 in, and installing 2 new WD SN850's

The MSI x570 Unify BIOS options are a little sparse compared to my old  x399 Gigabyte... the x570 only had a BIOS option for SATA Raid (which it appears to have applied to the nvme's as well) instead of having two separate options for nvme/sata raid settings.

In this mode, all drives fall under the AMD Driver, and I see them all in RaidExpert... the only oddity is that the nvme details cannot be pulled by the WD Dashboard... I suspect a limitation of the AMD Drivers and/or the nvme's being in raid mode... one post I found suggested that SMART access to drives was affected with the AMD driver consolidation, although I'm not certain if SMART is used by nvme's but it sounds related/relevant.

But beyond these little niggles, both my Macrium USB and "boot loader" versions detect and provide all HD's (under the AMD Raid Drivers)... so that is the good news.

I don't like the setup this way, as I'd prefer the nvme to not be in Raid mode... so depending on what the limitations are with this MSI board... I may reinstall my old HighPoint Raid card to connect my mirrored sata drives (need to backup/restore the data I suspect though) so that I can return the "sata-mode" (which seems to also control the nvme) to Sata/AHCI (off Raid-mode).

If/when that occurs, I'll provide another update on how the "boot loader" macrium handled it... but for now, all appears to be better from the Macrium perspective.
Edited 15 February 2021 1:06 PM by Daniel
Daniel
Daniel
New Member
New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 31, Visits: 3.9K
Finale?  I decided to install my HPT HBA card to manage my mirror; allowing me to disable the AMD-Raid mode in the BIOS.

Macrium of course was there to save my bacon with redeploy (no successful boot otherwise)... whereas I expected it to identify/install the "windows" default driver for my WD nvme drives, redeploy actually showed it was accepting a few of the existing AMD-RAID drivers (I suspect the "bottom" devices) and prompted me to provide two new/correct AMD drivers.  I pointed it to the nvme_DID folder, it seemed to be happy with what it found there, I enabled the sata boot option (interesting that was disabled/unchecked), and I booted right up into windows.

Once in windows I was able to update the Macrium driver package, update my boot loader Macrium, updated my USB Macrium, and tested both methods were able to see all my drives.  I think the new drivers redeploy wanted were for the new "storport" (rcraid.sys) entries for the SATA HD controller/channels (under the "bottom" device)... where I still have one lone SATA SSD.

What I suspect is this...  My old x399 motherboard offered different BIOS settings to control the nvme and SATA modes independently... and somewhere in the division of those channels the AMD drivers and/or Macrium weren't exactly happy... perhaps it wasn't able to reconcile that it needed a different AMD driver per path; like it appears macrium found/used during redeploy in SATA mode.

On the x570, even though I think it's odd that there are still references to the AMD-RAID drivers (release notes state "RAID Drivers will never be uninstalled by AMD RAID Software Installer, since it is a Boot Critical driver, uninstallation can lead to system failure.")... all my WD nmve drives now appear properly within the WD Dashboard though, and Dashboard even found/installed a BIOS update for my SN850's now that it could communicate with them properly/fully.

One noticeable difference disabling RAID-Mode in the bios made to loading Macrium recovery is that now the load of the AMD drivers (particularly the bottom device) is instantaneous... whereas it took it's sweet time (sensing the drives? interpreting the available channels?) with Raid-Mode enabled (just like it did on the x399? hmm, I'm not fully certain any more)... something not resolving quite the same way in the background in raid mode versus sata mode?

I also think things look more properly aligned in device manager under the x570... everything under PCI-to-PCI Bridge


Right now things are working like I expected with macrium recovery (usb & boot loader) and the WD Dashboard... but I might end up getting curious at some point to reg-hack out the AMD drivers just to see whether it can be done... as I do believe I should be able to boot into Windows in Sata-mode without them.
Edited 2 March 2021 4:06 AM by Daniel
Daniel
Daniel
New Member
New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)New Member (48 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 31, Visits: 3.9K
Ended up not needing to apply any registry-hacks...  learned a few things; including the dangers of assumptions

In the end, all was resolved by:
1) Although the NVME drives defaulted to using the RAID Driver, I found out I could select an NVME "bottom device" and update and "search for drivers already on the system", select the Standard NVME controller, reboot, and all was fine
2) I think what helped the above was that at one point during macrium's boot troubleshooter (where I'd fed AMD drivers) I had also checked the box to enable SATA boot
3) What finally got the [storport]/SATA controller off the raid drivers was... reselecting SATA mode in the BIOS.  I was pretty sure I had done that already... hence the assumption lesson
4) Now that the SATA controllers are off the RAID drivers I can use update & "search for drivers already on the system" and select between the AMD and MS drivers at will.


Edited 4 April 2021 9:17 PM by Daniel
GO

Merge Selected

Merge into selected topic...



Merge into merge target...



Merge into a specific topic ID...




Reading This Topic

Login

Explore
Messages
Mentions
Search