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sleeper35
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It seems that since I upgraded my computer every time I try to do something that should be simple with Macrium I have nothing but trouble. Recently I was attempting a backup and Image Guardian was preventing it. I finally turned Image Guardian off for the destination disk and the backup completed successfully. Based on advice in this forum, I uninstalled Macrium and reinstalled. Today I got a new larger external drive and I ran the full system backup to that drive without any problem. Now I am trying to clone another external drive to the drive I had been using for that full system backup. The drive I am attempting to clone is running very hot and I am afraid it will fail. I have attempted the clone procedure multiple times and always get some variation of error 8,  sometimes that the destination drive doesn't exist, the last time the specified network resource or device is no longer available. I have tried multiple usb ports and changed cables even though it was the same port and cable that I just finished making the successful backup to the new drive with. On most attempts the clone process failed at about 10%. The last attempt failed at 1 percent. I have done all the obvious things like turning off USB power management in power settings and in device manager . When the clone process fails the disk also disappears from My Computer. I went into disk management and the disk was there but had no drive letter. I fixed that but still won't work. The drive and all the cables and ports are USB3 . I just went back to disk management again and the destination drive was unallocated again. I made it a simple volume again and it's back in Window's explorer. I can't be sure but it seems like something in the clone process is causing the drive to disappear from windows.

jphughan
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The clone process DOES cause the target disk to disappear from Windows because the disk has to be taken offline from other applications in order to be cloned onto.  Additionally, a standard clone operation involves essentially marking the entire disk as empty and then writing out new data from scratch, and if you cancel the operation partway through (or it fails), then the data on the destination disk will be in an invalid state, and consequently you might not have usable partitions, which again would explain why the disk doesn't appear in Windows at that point.  Cloning is not like a routine file copy operation where cancelling partway through means you'll still have whatever files got copied before the cancellation, nor is it like an image backup operation where you're just wrapping up the source drive's contents into a regular file that will be stored on the destination just like any other file.  A clone is a low-level operation on the target disk that needs to be allowed to run to completion if you want a usable end result.  That said, if the clone does fail, you don't have to do anything to the disk within Disk Management to prep it for a second attempt.  You can just point Reflect at the destination disk again and it will just ignore whatever is there when it reattempts the clone.

As for the Error 8 message, I'm not sure what's going on there.  But when you say the drive you're attempting to clone is running hot, do you mean the drive you're cloning FROM (i.e. the source) or the drive you're cloning TO (i.e. the destination)?  If it's the destination drive that's running hot, then that might be related to the error you're seeing.  However, some drives -- both HDDs and SSDs -- can run quite hot under heavy load and they're still considered to be within normal operating temperature.

sleeper35
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I tried again and failed again. I'll attach the logs which say the VSS was denied access to the root of the volume and to check security. I reformatted the drive and checked properties, security and my administrative account has full privileges. I don't know what else to do.

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sleeper35
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jphughan - 9 February 2020 4:04 AM
The clone process DOES cause the target disk to disappear from Windows because the disk has to be taken offline from other applications in order to be cloned onto.  Additionally, a standard clone operation involves essentially marking the entire disk as empty and then writing out new data from scratch, and if you cancel the operation partway through (or it fails), then the data on the destination disk will be in an invalid state, and consequently you might not have usable partitions, which again would explain why the disk doesn't appear in Windows at that point.  Cloning is not like a routine file copy operation where cancelling partway through means you'll still have whatever files got copied before the cancellation, nor is it like an image backup operation where you're just wrapping up the source drive's contents into a regular file that will be stored on the destination just like any other file.  A clone is a low-level operation on the target disk that needs to be allowed to run to completion if you want a usable end result.  That said, if the clone does fail, you don't have to do anything to the disk within Disk Management to prep it for a second attempt.  You can just point Reflect at the destination disk again and it will just ignore whatever is there when it reattempts the clone.

As for the Error 8 message, I'm not sure what's going on there.  But when you say the drive you're attempting to clone is running hot, do you mean the drive you're cloning FROM (i.e. the source) or the drive you're cloning TO (i.e. the destination)?  If it's the destination drive that's running hot, then that might be related to the error you're seeing.  However, some drives -- both HDDs and SSDs -- can run quite hot under heavy load and they're still considered to be within normal operating temperature.

PS It's the source drive that is hot. It's a Seagate external with no fan and only a vent on top. plastic case, bad design. I'm switching to WD which intake air on bottom and vent to back and top.
jphughan
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Any third-party anti-virus running?  Sometimes they block access to VSS snapshots.  Reformatting the destination wouldn't do anything here because the snapshots are of the SOURCE drive, and the Security tab wouldn't govern access to snapshots of the drive.  You could try performing the clone from Rescue Media, since that environment would have no other applications running that could get in the way, in fact Rescue doesn't even need to use VSS because VSS is only needed when performing operations on disks while they're online (e.g. cloning the disk from which you're also actively running Windows), but in the Rescue environment all disks can be kept offline because Rescue is a self-contained environment

Edited 9 February 2020 5:02 AM by jphughan
sleeper35
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I tried the clone process with Norton antivirus off and same error. I will probably try doing it from rescue disk today but  like to understand when I can why things don't work. So here are some questions for you if you have answers, The Macrium log files for all the clone attempts have disappeared, The VSS logs are still there. I checked in other tasks the Image Guardian settings and they are turned on but when I checked the individual drive Image Guardian was disabled in all and I didn't do it. In the VSS log the drive that VSS was unable to access the root of was Volume{789a6d91-dfbf-4a66-889f-8ad067e0c6a7. I looked up all the disk volume IDs in Power Shell and of course this number is not there because it changes every time the disk is formatted. That fact alone tells me that the disk VSS can't access the root of is the destination disk because it is the only one that has been reformatted. So what changes in security settings need to be made for a drive that is freshly formatted and for which the current admin user has full privileges in order for VSS to access the root of the drive. In addition the source disk was just successfully imaged since it is part of the complete backup that I just did, so VSS must not have any trouble assessing the root of that disk.     In your former post you said that after a clone failure you wouldn't have to do any thing to the destination disk to make another attempt. That may be how it is supposed to work but that is not what is happening on my machine. After the failed clone attempt the destination drive not only disappears from My Computer it disappears from disk management and from Macrium. The disk light is slowly flashing instead of steady and the disk will not reappear until disconnected and reconnected to USB. I hope it works from rescue disk cause I could have just copied the whole 1.4 TB of files to the new drive in the time I have spent on this.

jphughan
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Ok, quite a bit to try to unpack in that last post, and I doubt I'll be able to help you with all of it, but I'll do what I can.

Please do try the Rescue Media method.  If that works, then it won't directly answer what's going on in your Windows environment, but it will mean that something there is interfering with Reflect. Many AV applications don't allow themselves to be completely disabled, fyi.  Even when you turn them off, in many cases they will continue doing things.  Symantec/Norton seems to come up a lot in cases of AV interfering with legitimate activity, both in terms of Reflect and in general.  I've seen cases where its scanning tripped Image Guardian because it tried to open backup files for write access (no good reason for that), and they've been in the news recently for, among other things, causing Chrome to crash after Google tried to enable some additional security features within Chrome (twice) and even preventing Windows updates from being installed after Microsoft switched to signing those updates using a more secure digital signature algorithm.  This type of nonsense and the fact that Windows Defender now holds up quite well against competitors in independent tests (and is free, unlike many solutions including Norton) is why I dumped third-party AV long ago.  They just seem to cause more problems than they solve these days, especially in this era of new major Windows 10 releases arriving every 6 months.  Even Macrium has a KB article warning about them here.

Image Guardian won't come into play during a clone operation.  Its function is to prevent non-Macrium applications from modifying Macrium backup files, such as MRIMG and MRBAK files.  It does absolutely nothing to block clone operations or even disk formatting operations, because it operates at a file level.  Clone operations and formatting operations are disk/partition-level.

There's no such thing as a "Disk Volume ID".  Disk IDs and Volume IDs are separate entities.  The fact that you're formatting the destination is also irrelevant because the VSS snapshot isn't of the destination volume; the snapshot is of the source volume.  The whole point of a snapshot is to give Reflect a consistent "data set" on the source to clone from, while still allowing you to use the system.  Any changes you make to the source drive during the clone operation would NOT be carried over to the destination because they wouldn't be in the snapshot, but the snapshot has to be used when cloning from a "live" partition because trying to clone from a source partition that's constantly changing doesn't work.  VSS is not trying to access the destination volume because there's no need to snapshot a volume that you're overwriting.  However, a VSS problem would certainly prevent the clone operation from proceeding.  The reason the Volume ID keeps changing has nothing to do with you reformatting your destination.  It's probably because the error message you're seeing is showing the ID of the VSS snapshot itself, not the actual source or destination volume, and each clone operation involves creating a new (temporary) snapshot with its own ID.

You don't need to make any changes to a freshly formatted drive to allow VSS to work.  If you did, then nobody would be able to use Reflect or pretty much any other image backup/clone utility without manually customizing their drives, and even built-in Windows tools like System Restore wouldn't work out of the box, but that's not how it works.  And that's why I suspect interference from some other application.  (And again, VSS isn't touching your destination disk anyway, so it would not be the culprit here.)

If you have to physically disconnect and reconnect the disk's USB cable after a clone failure before you can try again, then it sounds like a problem with either the disk or your enclosure/adapter.  For what it's worth, I once had a SATA to USB adapter that crashed under heavy write activity.  I could keep up heavy READ loads for as long as I wanted, i.e. copying dozens of gigabytes of data from the attached disk, but if I tried to perform sustained WRITE activity -- such as cloning onto the disk connected to that adapter -- the adapter would work for a while and then suddenly crash, and then I had to disconnect and reconnect that adapter to reset it.  Needless to say, that adapter quickly ended up in the trash.  Maybe that's what's happening in your case.  If you see this same behavior even in Rescue, then I would swap the USB adapter/enclosure.

Edited 9 February 2020 4:02 PM by jphughan
sleeper35
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You might be correct, I certainly can't say for sure but I'm betting it's a Macrium problem. I just attempted a restore of the disk in question from my complete computer backup. It seemed to proceed without problem til it got to 99% restored when an incorrect handle error popped up. I Xed it out and then it said restore finished . There is no mention of the handle problem in the log. However there is no restore. the disk was kicked offline again and is unallocated again. Obviously when I make a new volume any data that was there will be lost. Obviously VSS not involved here since it was a straight restore attempt with no reading of a disk. My main problem is that I still don't understand the original error in the cloning. How can VSS not have any problem making an image of a drive, even with the antivirus on, and then not be able to access the root of that drive, if it is the source drive it is talking about, when trying to clone that drive.

jphughan
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VSS doesn't make an image of the drive.  It creates a snapshot that Reflect uses as the basis for the image or clone operation -- but it's entirely possible for the VSS snapshot to succeed and then for Reflect to be prevented from accessing it.  I'm not sure what disk you're restoring onto relative to the disks you've been working with thus far, so it's tough to try to troubleshoot that on top of everything else you've already raised, but I stand by my earlier suggestion to try doing things in Rescue, which will remove VSS as well as the influence of any other applications that might be running.  If you perform a clone in Rescue and still find that your target disk drops offline partway through the operation, then try replacing the enclosure/adapter, or even the USB cable if it's not permanently attached to said enclosure/adapter.  But just trying to perform more and more different operations isn't getting you closer to identifying the problem and determining a solution.  You're just introducing more and more variables, when you need to be removing them in order to figure out what's going on.

I actually think it's quite unlikely that Reflect is to blame here.  Everything you've reported sounds like it could be accounted for by some sort of software interference or hardware problem, either of which would AFFECT Reflect, but that does not mean that Reflect is responsible for the failure.  But again, it's tough to say for sure when you're expanding the scope of the troubleshooting rather than narrowing it down.

Edited 9 February 2020 7:02 PM by jphughan
sleeper35
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the clone in rescue worked fine. All that proved for sure is that the drive enclosure was not at fault. I'm not faulting Macrium completely. I have been able to accomplish everything I have tried to do with Macrium just not the first time or easily. It is, after all, a Windows program designed to run on Windows which now pretty much means Windows 10 and if other conditions need to be met they need to be clearly stated in the manual if possible. The only thing pointed out as a problem so far is Norton and I will consider getting rid if it.  In Windows and Macrium and, I admit, practically every other windows program error messages are a problem. They hardly ever lead to some direct action that solves the problem. The VSS error of being unable to asses the root of the drive was an especially annoying problem in this case. The root of which drive and why at 15% completion in the cloning process and then the VSS log entry on that error pointing to a security problem with the drive none of which helps the average or even a little above average user solve the problem. I enjoy these issues to a point but most times just want programs to work. Thanks for your help. You seem to spend a lot of time on this forum so you must know the intricacies of Reflect very well. Looking through the forum I see you have tried to help at least one other user with error 8 in clone. If anyone ever figures out what is actually going on, let me know .

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